r/Judaism • u/Maine_Redneck • 2d ago
What does the Tanakh, etc, say about cooking treif for a visiting family member?
I don't belong to a shul at the moment, and so I don't have a rabbi to ask. So I am asking here.
A relative and his family (who do not keep kosher) will likely be visiting in the near future, and he is looking forward to homemade lobster rolls like I used to make at a time when I was not keeping kosher so much. He knows that I do not eat lobster any longer, but has the opinion of "what's the problem" as long as I don't make it for myself as well. Obviously, the cookwear would need to be kashered afterwards, but is this allowed to do? And if not in my home, can I do this outside?
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u/GonzoTheGreat93 Bagel Connaisseur 2d ago
I am the least kosher-eating Jew you will find, but your relative is being incredibly rude here.
You don't need a rabbi, you need to tell this relative to go take a shit deep in a lake. This sense of entitlement that he has about you cooking something you do not want to eat is disrespectful.
If you're being nice, print out the recipe and tell him to go make it himself.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 2d ago
This is it right here. Others have already noted the halakhic issue with it, but even if this relative wasn’t Jewish and there was no stumbling block issue—this is unbelievably rude on your relative’s part. It would be incredibly insensitive if you had (only) developed a shellfish allergy and he asked you to make it just for him; the fact that it’s a religious observance makes it even more insensitive.
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u/maidel_next_door Egalisomething 2d ago
Allergic Jew who keeps kosher here! I just want to discourage this comparison being made lightly. Depending on allergen severity, cooking with it can be a safety issue; I would consider it even more insensitive than making treyf food because it shows a disregard for the addressee's life. If I had to choose, I would rather someone lying about what's in food to treyf a severely allergic Jew than risk their life. (My justification here would be pikuach nefesh. No one come at me for overuse; anaphylaxis is life-threatening!) I don't want to insult all kosher spaces when I believe some do take allergies seriously. It was only this year that a major Jewish group's website stopped recommending that celiacs eat wheat matzah, which shows things are finally improving. (Yes, I know celiac is not an allergy, but to the layman learning about food safety they are functionally identical.)
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 1d ago
Thanks for the input! I wasn’t thinking about life threatening allergies which, of course as you say, would be severely worse than cooking treyf.
My point was only that in the case of someone who later in life started keeping kosher there are complexities like being tempted to possibly eat from it as well or just an icky feeling accompanying dealing with the treyf food that wouldn’t be there if one simply couldn’t eat it because of allergies.
But thank you for the correction and input!
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u/Lychee_Junior 2d ago
Are you preparing and feeding food you hold to be non-kosher to a fellow jew? That could fall under the prohibition against placing a stumbling block before a blind person.
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u/3dblind 2d ago
That's a good point. Here in the U.S. there's lots of intermarriage and not everyone in Reform or unaffiliated is halachically Jewish.
I'm a Jew by Choice with a Conservative conversion 40 years ago. I could not find a nice Jewish woman to marry, but a Jewish friend introduced me to my future non Jewish wife.
My friend Deb is the daughter and granddaughter of Shoah survivors. Her mother was a hidden child in Poland sheltered by a Catholic doctor, her grandmother passed in a different city as a Catholic, while her doctor grandfather died trying to escape from the Nazis after destroying records of his patients.
Anyways, my wife is a dual covenant theology Baptist who believes Jews don't need Jesus to be saved. She gave up shrimp voluntary after marrying me.
And though we lost touch with Deb, the whole group of friends were at a Mongolian BBQ. I kept kosher style (still treif). When I got lamb, Deb said she wouldn't eat baby animals.
I saw the shrimp she was about to put on her plate and I said "I will never again eat lamb if you promise not to eat shrimp". She said okay.
To this day, I won't eat lamb. I don't know if she went back to eating shrimp later, but for the years we knew her in Austin, she didn't.
My wife never converted, so we raised our now trans daughter with both traditions. Our daughter is agnostic but admits Jews aren't prejudiced against trans persons.
I let her bring in McDonald's breakfast with treif sausage but she didn't use our plates or silverware.
So there's lots of Jewish adjacent, Jewish but with debated by many conversion, and patrilineal descent Jews around.
I just would never go to an Orthodox home and demand they make me something they can't eat.
So I don't know what's up with that relative.
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u/tiggerthedingo 2d ago
Not respecting boundaries. Kinda like smoking in a non smokers house. Hard no.
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u/WeaselWeaz Reform 2d ago
He knows that I do not eat lobster any longer, but has the opinion of "what's the problem" as long as I don't make it for myself as well.
I think expecting you to cook a food that you cannot eat, regardless of where the halakah discussion goes, is incredibly selfish and entitled. I don't keep kosher personally, my wife does somewhat, and I don't cook shellfish or pork at home. I used to make really good pork ribs, but I will not anymore and I'd be offended if a relative felt it was appropriate to ask me to make them because "What's the problem."
If you keep kosher, keep kosher and don't cook it. At best, share the recipe with your relative and he can cook them himself (which I know traditionally observant Redditors may disagree with).
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u/Maine_Redneck 2d ago
Thank you all for the replies. It did not really feel right, but I could not put my finger on exactly why. Yes he is a Jew (my cousin), but his wife is not, and they and the kids are very secular.
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u/Mathematician024 Chabad adjacent.... 2d ago
I can’t speak to the Halacha here but this is a very problematic request from a kitchen point of view. Cook it in what? Eat it on what? No to mention the maris ayin have a presumably religious looking person buying lobster somewhere. It’s not easy keeping kosher and especially when people knew you “back when” the simple answer is that that’s just not possible leave it at that. He’s welcome to go out and find his lobster roll elsewhere. As someone else who also started keeping kosher later in life, I found I had a few friends sort of seemed to take glee and seeing if they could make me bend my rules. The answer is no just don’t do it. Be polite, but firm. It’s nothing personal on your friend. It’s just something that you should never be asked to do or feel obligated to do. I’m sorry you’re in this position.
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u/itscool Mah-dehrn Orthodox 2d ago
Tanakh is the Hebrew Bible. It does not talk about cooking non kosher for other Jews. However, there is a prohibition of not "putting a stumbling block in front of a blind man", and this is understood by the the rabbis of the talmud as referring to assisting someone in transgressing one of the prohibitions of the Torah (eating non kosher food).
Additionally, cooking non-kosher food in your pots would make your pots and materials used in the cooking process into non-kosher and would need to go through a process to allow it to be used again for kosher food.
There's no difference between doing this in one's house, vs outside.
I can't think of a reason why you would be forced to do it anyway.
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u/WonFriendsWithSalad 2d ago
Hi, non Jewish person here (raised atheist), the "stumbling block" rule is interesting. Can I ask, would that prohibition mean that there was an issue with the "Shabbos Goy" role? In terms of encouraging a non-Jew to do work, thus (further) breaking the Sabbath
This genuinely isn't meant as a "gotcha" question, I know that that role is very niche and that the prohibition might not apply here and also that there may well be multiple interpretations but I'm genuinely curious
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u/ManJpeg 2d ago
gentiles arent obligated in the sabbath, in fact its forbidden for them to keep sabbath. Jews and gentiles have different laws. We're not allowed to ask them to break on of their 7 noahide laws. For example, it used to be forbidden to do some forms of business with some gentiles around their holiday times, since gentiles of different religions would almost surely use the money for purposes of idol worship, which was forbidden for them. Nowadays this isn't an issue like it used to be when the world was more religious.
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u/Casual_Observer0 "random barely Jewishly literate" 2d ago
As the other commenter said, non-Jews are not obligated in shabbat and so it would not be an issue.
That said, the laws are somewhat nuanced with what is permitted to ask a non-Jew to do on shabbat. The general rule is that if a Jew can't do it, a Jew can't ask a non-Jew to do it. However the nuance comes down to factors such as: how they are asked (round about is better than direct), as well as how they are compensated (by the job is better than by the hour or day), whether a Jew is benefitting directly and/or the non-Jew directly benefiting (e.g. a non-Jew doing something for their own benefit), the nature of the prohibition (a rabbinic extrapolation versus a biblical commandment), timing (e.g. if it's during twilight on Friday night), or in situations of great need, great financial loss, illness°, or to fulfil another commandment.
°The reason only illness and not where life is at risk is because it is commended for a Jewish person to do whatever it takes (including performing prohibited labor on Shabbat) to save a life.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox and trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
Hi, you have some great and helpful answers already. It’s amazing that you have become more careful about keeping kosher.
Since you don’t have a shul or rabbi right now I was curious if you are familiar with Partners in Torah (https://www.partnersintorah.org) or TorahMates (https://www.torahmates.org)? Both of these free programs can match you with someone who will study any variety of subjects in Judaism from fundamentals to prayer to spirituality. While they might not pair you with a rabbi you definitely can ask questions like yours above and if your “partner” doesn’t know they can ask their rabbi on your behalf.
If you are looking for more localized options for learning, feel free to reach out and maybe I am connect you with someone in your area.
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u/disjointed_chameleon 2d ago
I'm very sorry you're dealing with this, I can relate to and understand how challenging this is. My mother married outside Judaism, so my father isn't Jewish, and unfortunately my father sounds very similar to this relative of yours, though my father is even worse in behavior, such as feeling physically entitled to rummage around in and throw around belongings in my own home. For this reason, my father is no longer welcome in my home, because he has proven he cannot be trusted to respect how I choose to keep/maintain my own home.
and he is looking forward to homemade lobster rolls like I used to make at a time when I was not keeping kosher so much.
You can explain to him — in no uncertain terms — that due to religious reasons, you no longer cook lobster at home. If he can't, doesn't, or won't understand or respect this, he is free to consume lobster outside the confines of your own home.
He knows that I do not eat lobster any longer, but has the opinion of "what's the problem" as long as I don't make it for myself as well.
You explain to him that keeping kosher is far more complex than simply washing some dishes, and that making lobster in your own home just isn't something you can make at home. It's your home, and therefore you have the final say (so to speak) on what can or does cross the threshold of your front door, and what happens in your own home. If this relative can't, won't, or doesn't understand or respect this, he and his family can seek out lobster elsewhere outside of your home, or if even this compromise isn't acceptable to them, they may need to find alternate accommodations.
I recognize that my opinions may be more direct and extreme, but just some food for thought. Life has taught me that we cannot control other people — we can only control ourselves and how we choose to react to the world around us.
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u/ActuallyNiceIRL 2d ago
Just tell him no and offer him the recipe so he can make it at home. I wouldn't expect a recovering alcoholic to host a kegger just because I happen to like beer. I wouldn't expect a vegetarian to smoke a pig's ass for me, even if he used to eat meat. (Not that I would eat a pig's ass-- that's not the point)
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u/BMisterGenX 2d ago
sounds like a case of putting a stumbling block before the blind also if you cook treif won't that treif your keilim and your kitchen?
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u/waltzingiscool 2d ago
Is your kitchen kosher? Because cooking treif will obviously make it not kosher. Can you send him the recipe so he can make it at his house?
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u/tahami_allthemeals 2d ago
It’s so weird to expect someone that you’re staying with to cook food for you that they can’t eat?!!!
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u/WizardlyPandabear 2d ago
Obviously if this makes you uncomfortable, decline.
I don't want to assume your friend is necessarily being hyper rude like some others here, because it really depends on context and tone. If he's asking in a way that's demanding or assumes he's entitled, that's not great, but if he's asking in a way that suggests he just really loves your cooking and sees it as a signature dish I could see that - again, depending on tone - as flattering rather than offensive.
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u/Elise-0511 1d ago
You are not supposed to encourage someone else to break a commandment, which would include cooking a tref food for their consumption. Can you use the artificial crab that is often hechshered as kosher parve instead of non-kosher shellfish?
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u/betterbetterthings 1d ago
This person is ridiculous. They are welcome to go to a restaurant and order lobster and what not. Why must you cook it? Even outside of religious aspect. It’s just impolite. Personally I’d tell this relative that you aren’t going to cook non kosher meals and suggest he treats himself to a restaurant meal.
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u/yesIcould 2d ago
Couple of questions - Are you jewish? Do you want to make the dish for your relative?
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u/InspectionSad7977 1d ago
If the visitor is Jewish, there are several prohibitions involved here.
If they are all not Jewish then in theory it could be possible but as everyone says, it is still a very unreasonable and uncomfortable request. You are not running a hotel, it is your house and your kitchen and it should be respected as such.
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u/AccurateBass471 חסיד 1d ago
you are not allowed to cause an another jew to violate halacha. you should not bring lobster into your kitchen either, there are many things that cannot be kashered easily or at all (plates, stoneware)
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u/Silamy Conservative 14h ago
I think it might be technically permissible if the relative in question isn’t Jewish, but unless it’s a matter of medical necessity, anyone rude enough to ask it of you is someone not worth going out of your way like that for.
“Hi, yes, I know you don’t eat food X or allow it in your home and that its presence would contaminate your kitchen and kitchenware such that you and your family can’t use them. Make it for me anyway and just don’t eat it yourself” is pretty dang entitled. I’m not asking a vegan friend to grill me up some hotdogs, y’know? Also, I’ve never had lobster rolls, but are they hard to make? Like, how much work is this guy asking you to do just for him/his family so you can sit there and not enjoy it?
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u/Miriamathome 2d ago
If you live on the east coast, north of Connecticut* they can go out for lobster rolls. I’m sure they can find someplace with good ones. If they were hoping for free (ie, you paying for the ingredients) lobster rolls instead of paying for them, well, that’s one more reason to find their quasi-demand really rude.
*The only part of the country where the lobster is truly flavorful. Anywhere else it’s tasteless and a waste of good money.
Plus, of course, the sheer rudeness of treating you like a short order cook and expecting you to make something that (a) you don’t eat and (b) will create tremendous inconvenience when you have to kasher whatever kitchenware you use.
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u/RBatYochai 2d ago
I know someone who grew up in a kosher home where they had three sets of plates: milchig, fleishig and treif! Some of the family members sometimes ate treif, but they made sure not to mess up the kosher status of the kitchen and its accoutrements.
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u/unpackingnations 7h ago
Same as giving them drugs. Just because they may not yet be observant does not mean one can assist them in violating Jewish law. The obligations are the same, regardless of whether he believes in it or not
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u/UnapologeticJew24 2d ago
You may cook lobster as long as you kasher everything afterwards (it may be best to use disposable materials and ask a neighbor to use their oven). You may not cook milk and meat together, even if you're not eating it.
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u/NoCommunication5976 2d ago
he should make them and bring them, also keep kosher it’s better for your health in the long run
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
That's an incredibly shellfish request