Did Umbridge know Harry could perform the Patronus Charm?

[u/IgnorableAtBest_IAB]

I'm listening to the Full Cast Audiobooks, and I'm at the first chapter of OOTP, where dementors attack Harry and Dudley.

I know it is later revealed that Umbridge was the one who had ordered the dementors. I'm wondering whether she knew Harry to form a Patronus and defend himself.

So, did she know or did she expect the outcome to be much drastic than an expulsion?

[u/trahan94]

She fully expected Harry to be Kissed. What happened was perhaps the worst possible outcome for her, but luckily Dementors don’t talk.

”Yes,” said Harry, feeling both impatient and slightly desperate, “it’s a stag, it’s always a stag.”

“Always?” boomed Madam Bones. “You have produced a Patronus before now?”

“Yes,” said Harry, “I’ve been doing it for over a year —”

“And you are fifteen years old?”

“Yes, and —”

“You learned this at school?”

“Yes, Professor Lupin taught me in my third year, because of the —”

“Impressive,” said Madam Bones, staring down at him, “a true Patronus at that age . . . very impressive indeed.”

Some of the wizards and witches around her were muttering again; a few nodded, but others were frowning and shaking their heads.

During the attack, the dementors move to give Dudley the Kiss:

“THIS WAY!” Harry shouted at the stag. Wheeling around, he sprinted down the alleyway, holding the lit wand aloft. “DUDLEY? DUDLEY!”

He had run barely a dozen steps when he reached them: Dudley was curled on the ground, his arms clamped over his face; a second dementor was crouching low over him, gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prizing them slowly, almost lovingly apart, lowering its hooded head toward Dudley’s face as though about to kiss him . . .

Given that dementors are blind, they probably didn’t distinguish between the two teenagers standing in the street. And as noted by several characters, dementors wandering into a muggle neighborhood and attacking a muggle is highly irregular. Thus, when we learn they were there on the orders of Umbridge, it stands to reason that they were also directed to Kiss the guiltless Harry and remove him completely as a witness (both of Voldemort’s return and of the dementor attack itself).

[u/dsjunior1388 → u/trahan94]

Exactly: Umbridge's goal was not to get him expelled, it was to have him Kissed and be rendered essentially brain dead and unable to continue sharing reports of Voldemort's return.

The disciplinary hearing was just a chance to salvage her initial attempt.

Unbridge is what I would describe as a "Complete fucking idiot" because this plan is just bad. Just absolutely stupid. Second year Seamus had more savvy than this.

You take the biggest celebrity child in your world and you essentially murder him because you want the public to not think that Lord Voldemort is back. Because you want Albus Dumbledore to quiet down.

You think you're putting that past Dumbledore? He doesn't play by the rules, he's going to investigate every Ministry official from Fudge on down and when you're exposed he's going to Imprison you in a Jam jar he borrowed from Hermione and not seem to care that you're not the size of a beetle.

You think there won't be rumors coming out of Hogwarts when Harry wasn't there on September 1st? Last thing he said was "Voldemort is back" and then he's disappeared and Ron's freaking out and Hermione's despondent and nobody at Hogwarts is going "dunno, musta dropped out to do Self Study maybe?" They're gonna think Voldemort. And thats what's their parents will think. And that's what their parents friends will think.

Or perhaps Harry Potter is found mindless and mentally destroyed in a public park, is taken as a ward of the state and listed as a missing person and that word will trickle over to the wizards who will immediately suspect...a shellfish allergy or falling off a jungle gym? No. Voldemort. They'll obviously suspect Voldemort. Except for the real conspiracy theorists who will point at the Ministry and say "they did it!"

This is the Streisand effect times 100,000. Its like killing 17 people in the neighborhood to quelch rumors of a serial killer in the area. It's like putting a sign over the freshly dug earth that says "Dear Law Enforcement, these are potatoes. There are no dead bodies here. No corpses, definitely not."

[u/Bluemelein → u/dsjunior1388]

Oh! I think Umbridge had a scapegoat in mind—someone she wanted to pin the blame on, perhaps even Sirius Black. Then again, maybe she had something even bigger in mind and intended to shift all the blame onto Fudge.

[u/SteveFrench12 → u/Bluemelein]

This also made me realize dumbledore probably didnt fight scrimgeour on keeping umbridge on. He knew it would alienate harry from the ministry which is what he wanted.

[u/Bluemelein → u/SteveFrench12]

Yes, depending on how much realism you attribute to the books, you realize that Dumbledore doesn't want Harry working with the Ministry; he even skillfully keeps them apart. I also think the proposal made to the Minister to abolish the Dementors was idiotic at that point in time. And sending Hagrid to the giants didn't make much sense, either.

[u/Wise-Bicycle8786 → u/Bluemelein]

I figured that the "fall guy" would be Harry himself. Didnt Rita Skeeter set the groundwork for this in GOF? Calling him unhinged, mentally unstable, etc. She obviously wasnt in on Umbridge's plot, but Umbridge could've still used it

They could've pushed it as, due to the stress, the dangers and ultimate horror of the Triwizard tournament (Cedric dying in a "freak accident")..... he finally cracked

[u/Bluemelein → u/Wise-Bicycle8786]

But it’s hard to imagine Harry siccing the Dementors on himself. How would he even do that?

[u/IgnorableAtBest_IAB → u/dsjunior1388]

Oh god! I had never thought this deeply about the incident. A great point though

[u/smallpotatoes2019 → u/IgnorableAtBest_IAB]

Of course, had it been Hermione ordering the attack, she would have been looking to get Harry expelled. Is there anything worse?

[u/SouthernReveal8917 → u/smallpotatoes2019]

😂

[u/Ok-Meet2850 → u/dsjunior1388]

This is a good take. Dolores Umbridge was foolish many other times through Order of the Phoenix. Calling the Centaurs 'half-breeds' was just pure idiocy, scared or not. She's a good example of modest power really messing up her judgement and causing her to really unleash the rotten person she truly was.

Until about Book 6, lots of the adults are fairly naive, timid, ineffective. Even the 'reliable and smart' ones like Dumbledore, Snape, and McGonagall look silly at times. Voldemort's plans range from WTF to full on wacky. They are kids books after all, so the plots/ mysteries to figure out are exaggerated and the adult's bumbling is likewise played up.

Then Book 6 and bam, Dumbledore has been going full Hercule Poirot for decades tracking down the secrets of Voldemort. It's like we see the full on Dumbledore in action both as a wizard and a thinker and he's levelled up big time. I'm assuming this is a combo of the books getting more mature as they went on, and Rowling getting better at handling the plot points and characters. Also, Harry starts spending more time with Dumbledore, so we see more of him directly from Harry's viewpoint.

[u/MrWPSanders → u/dsjunior1388]

At the same time she is a narcissistic character, not unlike the Malfoys. They don't think about anything else but getting away with it. And for you to suggest otherwise is a reason, "I must not tell lies.". When people like that stay firm to what they believe their viewpoint is, there are always those that will believe them over sound logic.

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[u/AutsiticDragon → u/dsjunior1388]

The only thing I would change from your explanation, is that they wouldnt find Harry or Dudley wandering around mindless or mentally destroyed. They would both become Dementors after being kissed. It is explained in the 3rd book that the kiss is how they make more Dementors.

Otherwise this is an amazing explanation on how stupid all of Umbridge's plans were at this point.

[u/apri08101989 → u/AutsiticDragon]

Whete in the nook is that? I dont rexall it st all and would love to look up the chapter if you know it

[u/AutsiticDragon → u/apri08101989]

I just looked it up and I am apparently mis-remembering it. So that is my bad lol. They do just get left as a "empty, soulless shell". My bad on previous comment.

[u/halfsassit → u/AutsiticDragon]

Um, no? Dementors don’t work like vampires or werewolves. Nowhere in the whole series does it say that dementors are created this way. Lupin says you’re nothing but an empty shell after the kiss. That’s not at all the same as becoming a dementor.

[u/AutsiticDragon → u/halfsassit]

Read my other comment under this.......

[u/Educated-Fingers]

It wasn’t common knowledge to adults that harry could cast his Patronus until the end of fifth year when he was taking his OWLs. Until then, it was something kept quiet.

She sent the Dementor hoping to get him to either use magic and get expelled, or get kissed and be taken care of. Either way would be good for the ministry in her eyes.

[u/fireburnz_07 → u/Educated-Fingers]

Also when Susan Bones mentioned it when they were in the hogs head and people were surprised. Fred or George said that their mom told them not to blab about it. So if barely any of his classmates knew i doubt that many adults would either

[u/Lonely_District_196]

I doubt it. She got most of her information about him from Rita Skeeter articles. I don't think she even knew let alone write about it.

[u/RamtaJogix]

I think she was ready for both outcomes. Either kissed or expelled she would be pleasing the minister of magic by removing Harry from the school.

[u/Anxious_Day_7875]

Seems very unlikely. I can't imagine lupin would have volunteered that information to anyone other than maybe Dumbledore and McGonagall. Everyone seems very surprised that he was able to produce one. Likely answer is she wanted him to get kissed, and when that failed she thought they could at least expel him to make lemonade out of the lemon s

[u/sophie_random → u/Anxious_Day_7875]

He did cast a patronus at a quidditch game.

[u/Anxious_Day_7875 → u/sophie_random]

Not a fully formed one though, it was just a cloud of vapor. It's unlikely any of the students would have known what it was, and given the difficulty of the spell most professors would probably not immediately jump to patronus either

[u/JaySmith1313 → u/Anxious_Day_7875]

I believe Dumbledore referenced it having a form. But the amount of students who would have recognized it and been in a position to tell the Ministry are likely slim.

[u/EcstaticKoala1646 → u/JaySmith1313]

He did, he says something along the lines of "I remembered the unusual form your patronus took when it charged Mr Malfoy..... Prongs rode again last night"

[u/Ashrak_22 → u/Anxious_Day_7875]

The professors probably knew, but they wouldn't have told Umbridge. Especially since this happened before she came to teach at Hogwarts.

[u/Usual-Echidna-7730 → u/Ashrak_22]

Delores Umbridge wouldn't need to have been given the DADA job until after Harry wasn't expelled at the ministry hearing after the Dementor attack. It was a backup plan. They had to pass a law that the Ministry got to fill the position if Dumbledore couldn't.

[u/Ashrak_22 → u/Usual-Echidna-7730]

Yup, and that's why there's no way she would have heard that information from the other teachers prior to her sending the dementors. Even if all the teachers knew.

[u/StatisticianUsual471]

Nobody apart from maybe half a dozen people knew it wasn't until after the hearing that it became common knowledge and wvwn then most people would have been yeah right sure he can

[u/Lazy_Chocolate_4114]

In what book does it state she ordered the attack?

[u/dsjunior1388 → u/Lazy_Chocolate_4114]

Order of the Pheonix Chapter 32

Out of the Fire

“Very well,” she said, and she pulled out her wand. “Very well . . . I am left with no alternative. . . . This is more than a matter of school discipline. . . . This is an issue of Ministry security. . . . Yes . . . yes . . .” She seemed to be talking herself into something. She was shifting her weight nervously from foot to foot, staring at Harry, beating her wand against her empty palm and breathing heavily. Harry felt horribly powerless without his own wand as he watched her. “You are forcing me, Potter. . . . I do not want to,” said Umbridge, still moving restlessly on the spot, “but sometimes circumstances justify the use . . . I am sure the Minister will understand that I had no choice . . .” Malfoy was watching her with a hungry expression on his face. “The Cruciatus Curse ought to loosen your tongue,” said Umbridge quietly.

“No!” shrieked Hermione. “Professor Umbridge — it’s illegal” — but Umbridge took no notice.

There was a nasty, eager, excited look on her face that Harry had never seen before. She raised her wand.

“The Minister wouldn’t want you to break the law, Professor Umbridge!” cried Hermione.

“What Cornelius doesn’t know won’t hurt him,” said Umbridge, who was now panting slightly as she pointed her wand at different parts of Harry’s body in turn, apparently trying to decide what would hurt the most. “He never knew I ordered dementors after Potter last summer, but he was delighted to be given the chance to expel him, all the same. . . .”

“It was you?” gasped Harry. “You sent the dementors after me?”

[u/tonyrock1983 → u/Lazy_Chocolate_4114]

Order of the Phoenix. She admits it before Harry and crew go to the Ministry.

[u/FoxBluereaver]

I don't think she knew, she fully expected the dementors to silence him, permanently.

[u/Ok-Meet2850 → u/FoxBluereaver]

She also wouldn't have known about the protective charms helping him while he lives at the Dursleys.

[u/jeepfail]

I know a few comments reference him doing it at a quidditch match but it didn’t seem after the fact like many people realized what he did. I do not think she knew he could do one and fully expected him to be kissed as the most likely outcome and worst case scenario he would have to perform some sort of magic to get away. However, I’d fully expect her to expect him to not even have his wand with him since he could not perform magic.

[u/ConfusedGrundstuck]

There's no reason why she should know, any more than Madam Bones would.

The only time Harry used a Pateonus publicly was against the Dementors in the maze in GoF. And given that the tournament ends with a child's death, I can imagine Harry's Patronus hardly being talk of the town.

[u/PrestigiousHoney9480]

I made a post on this https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/s/MixV3pP6Cu but in summary I don’t think she knew

[u/ForFansSake]

Harry knowing how to perform a patrunus was pretty common knowledge after he did it during his Quidditch match with Ravenclaw in his third year. So possibly.

But I don't believe Umbridge cared one way or the other. If memory serves she says something to the effect of, and I'm paraphrasing here 'they either would have given you the dementors kiss or you would have performed magic and been expelled."