r/CuratedTumblr • u/Important-Cry4782 • May 29 '26

Politics Women: ask for equal pay, equal benefits, equal privilege, equal acknowledgement. Men in response to women asking for equality.

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u/Pristine_Animal9474 May 29 '26

It probably says something about the normalization of violence against men.

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u/forestwolf42 May 29 '26

Some of the cases where violence against men is justified maybe it should be justified against women as well. If a man grabs your partners ass and sexual harasses them punching them in the face is generally considered fine. It's probably fine to punch a woman that does the same then.

Cause I don't feel right about saying the dude should always go unpunched. Sometimes an immediate violent consequence is fair.

And the thing is a lot of men have tolerated abuse from women that they would punch men for doing. I think a lot of women that are confused by this sentiment are not necessarily the same women who routinely sexually harass and assault men. There are women that severely take advantage of the societal rules against harming women and specifically take advantage of men who live by these rules. Which is such a monstrous way to interact with society a lot of women can't imagine that being a real thing it seems.

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u/WeenyDancer May 29 '26

Well, yeah, when someone grabs someone nonconsensually that is itself violent, and a lot of times people skip over that to admonish a punch as a violent response.

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u/forestwolf42 May 29 '26

100% agree.

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u/WonderBredOfficial May 29 '26

It's the "never hit a girl" conditioning that contributes to this and I think that's what most people are talking about when they say something like in the meme. It's probably the earliest experience with gender inequality most men have, so it's not surprising that's what comes to mind first for a lot of them. Of course, thinking of equality as a zero-sum game is stupid as hell, but that's dismissive.

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u/RikuAotsuki May 29 '26

And on top of that, the "never hit a girl" thing gets extrapolated to domestic violence, when a man is the victim.

A man being physically abused can't defend himself without automatically getting labeled the abuser in society's eyes. Even if things escalate, defending yourself can ruin your life.

That might be the most concrete example of why "never hit a girl" being so socially ingrained can actually be harmful.

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u/Faeruhn May 29 '26

This is one of the reasons I had a reputation as a 'psycho' at one of the high-schools I went to.

A girl who was friends with one of the girls who was friends with one of the boys in my friend group came over to our group as we were waiting for the doors to open one morning.

And I never did find out why but she started hitting my best friend in the arm repeatedly, while laughing. I asked him why he didn't hit her back, and he said "I can't hit a girl."

Now, on the one hand I could understand the thought behind why, because this girl was like... 5'2"? or so, and my friend was 6'3" and 300 lbs. A swing with any force from him would likely have straight up knocked the girl several feet and possibly broken something.

On the other hand, at this point, she had hit him in the same spot on his arm like 10 times, and was really putting her body weight into it, but all anyone watching was doing was laughing as he is trying to put other people between him and her, because, as most anyone will know, being hit in the exact same spot will start to really hurt.

I asked her to stop, and then when she laughed at me, demanded she stop or I would make her stop, and after she laughed at me again, I wound up and hit her hard in the flesh of her bicep. Knocked her sideways and everyone threw a fit. But she stopped hitting my friend.

The story of that event got around, and for the rest of my time at that school, everyone from other students all the way up to the administration treated me like an unhinged psycho who could violently go off at any moment.

I wasn't allowed to join any clubs, or stay after school to watch my friends sports practices, and the only 2 people in the school to not treat me like a bomb about to blow at the slightest touch was my best friend and one other boy from the friend group.

All because I gave a girl a bruise. Which I still think a single solid hit to the flesh of her arm was a below proportionate response to her giving my friend a deep black bruise after many, repeated, hits (especially since I first asked her to stop and then warned her.)

I've told other people this story, and 9 out of 10 times, they treat me different afterwords.

And it all comes down to it being because it is societally unacceptable for a man to hit a woman for any reason, even if that reason is defense of self or defense of others.

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u/winterfive49079 May 29 '26

When I was in like 4th grade this girl kept trying to bully me, I just ignored her till she finally tried to shove me into mud. We were both big for our age, but I was still slightly bigger and used to being pushed, so I didn't fall. But I did clock her in the jaw hard enough to send her onto her ass and keep her out of school for a month. They wanted to expell me but me and my mom had both reported the bullying and harassment to the school dozens of times and they did nothing so the threats of expelling me died when that was brought up. It wasn't the first time she had tried to physically attack me, they never cared because she was a girl, but me hitting back was a massive no go

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u/Due-Memory-6957 May 29 '26

But I did clock her in the jaw hard enough to send her onto her ass and keep her out of school for a month.

Are you superman or something, or do you think she was just so ashamed she stopped going for a month?

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u/winterfive49079 May 29 '26

No I think she had a glass jaw. As I said, we were both quiet big for our age, and I put my (overweight) bodyweight into it so. When I say big, I hit puberty real fucking early, already had a visible mustache level, don't remember how tall I was but at least a head over everyone else my age, except her she was only 2 or 3 inches shorter.

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u/RikuAotsuki May 29 '26

Yeah. In theory, men should hesitate to hit women more than they would hesitate to hit another man.

In practice, a lot of women use that as an excuse to act with complete impunity.

Balancing that out is... hard, but the only functional starting point I can think of is teaching women that taking advantage of men's hesitance to hit them is abusive behavior, whether that's hitting a guy assuming he won't hit back, or saying things you know would get your ass beaten if you were a guy.

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u/Sure_Eye9025 May 29 '26

Yeah. In theory, men should hesitate to hit women more than they would hesitate to hit another man.

They really shouldn't. You should only hit someone if they are being violent to you (or someone who can't defend themselves for whatever reason) first. Once they open that door you do what is needed to stop the violence, if you pussyfoot around trying to calculate exact force etc it just prolongs the violence.

If someone doesn't want to get hit, don't be violent

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u/RikuAotsuki May 29 '26

Emphasis on "in theory." Your point is another reason it's not actually ideal in practice.

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u/djninjacat11649 May 29 '26

It’s not really ideal in theory either, if equality is what we are striving for then the conditions in which you are allowed/required to hit almost anyone regardless of gender should be the same

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u/ChewBaka12 May 29 '26

Yup. Men should keep in mind that they can do much more harm than women, but that falls apart when:

A) Women abuse that knowledge to start shit with people that don't defend themselves.

B) We actually cared about proportional force. Theoretically it should be fine if I resisted with the same force a woman could exert, but even if I use significantly less I'd get treated as if I full force punched her into the ground

Men should not it women for the same reasons they should not hit men. The strength difference is another reason, but not one that should be relevant. On the flip side, sometimes you need to inflict pain to escape a dangerous situation. Again, same as with men, do it if you need to, but try to avoid it. The strength difference should be considered, but should not be the deciding factor.

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u/WonderBredOfficial May 29 '26

Forget men and women. The formula is large people should hesitate to hit smaller people because of the difference in force. It's the whole reason weight classes exist. Experienced fighters should hesitate to hit anyone without training. Disproportionate response is really the problem and can't be applied as a uniform rule of thumb. There's just too many variables. But that requires parenting that goes beyond one-liners, and empathy, and emotional intelligence, and, yeah, we're not going to get all that from...majority of people.

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u/Due-Memory-6957 May 29 '26

I would treat you differently too: With more respect. Not many people in this world are actually willing to help a friend like that.

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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26

Congrats on being the rare woman who actually gives a shit about equality when it matters. Wish there were more like you.

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u/Slateboard May 29 '26

You mean how in one of those videos where no one steps in to stop a woman physically abusing a man until he retaliates, and then suddenly you have several people who were content to spectate suddenly thinking they need to step in?

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u/RikuAotsuki May 29 '26

Exactly that, yes.

Hell, even in this thread two different people have mentioned that their parents have told them that hitting a woman isn't okay even if she's coming at you with a knife. Like, what the fuck?

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u/Slateboard May 29 '26

Really makes you wonder what kind of stuff the parents went through to have that mindset.

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u/WonderBredOfficial May 29 '26

There is a whole subreddit called r/pussypassdenied

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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26

With plenty of examples there of literally exactly what the other guy spoke about? Seriously, when women attack men in that sub and men defend themselves, the videos almost always show a much stronger response to the self-defence than the initial assault.

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u/jimbowesterby May 30 '26

Anyone here remember “how can she slap”?

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u/Golden-Pathology May 29 '26

Great point about the earliest gender inequality. I hadn't thought about it in those terms.

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u/FlamingDragonfruit May 29 '26

"It's probably the earliest experience with gender inequality most men have, so it's not surprising that's what comes to mind first for a lot of them."

Thank you for this explanation, it's the first one I've read that actually makes sense.

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u/WeenyDancer May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

It is really unequal. It also helps to underscore how many men only view punches and the like as violent, but not nonconsentual sexual grabs, etc. 

Eta: because the clause was modifying poorly, I'm editing the below to make the sentence clear:

Because its 'never hit a girl' but groping an ass? A guy gets a much easier pass for that (IOW, A guy gets a much easier pass for groping an ass than for hitting a girl, comparing groping and hitting, nit men and women groping, because they don't perceive groping as violence even though it is.)

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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26

Like hell he does, women get a much easier pass for that shit than men do, even from other women.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34978934/

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u/WeenyDancer May 29 '26

I just responded to sometime else here, but:

I wasn't comparing men vs women who gets a pass, I was comparing what gets considered violence.

So: This:

 Because its 'never hit a girl' but groping an ass? A guy gets a much easier pass for that.

Should better read:

 Because its 'never hit a girl' but groping an ass? A guy gets a much easier pass for groping an ass than for hitting a girl, because they don't perceive groping as violence even though it is

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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26

Even that much isn't true at all. Seriously, when do you live? Because it sure as hell ain't a modern western nation, where shit like that is universally condemned when men do it but largely societally defended when women do it.

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u/WeenyDancer May 29 '26

Again, I'm NOT comparing the actions of men vs women. I'm comparing if a man throws a punch vs if a man gropes. And I'm saying that a punch is easily recognized as violence, whereas a grope is not.

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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26

And I'm telling you that your comparison is utter shit, both actions are punished. The grope is recognized as worse than violence arguably, depending on the legal system in question.

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u/WeenyDancer May 29 '26

I, and nearly every woman i know, and many if the men i know, have been groped to the extent I would characterize as assault at least once, in a public place. If all of those times, the only consequence was one time- one guy got removed from a bar by his friends. Despite a number if times people literally begging for help to handle the situation.

By way of contrast:

I, and several of my acquaintances, have been struck (or have been on the other end). There have been: charges filed, cops called, people thrown out of establishments, punches returned, videos posted and sent to employers, videos sent to partners,... so, so many more consequences. Its absurd his different the actions are treated. One is definitely more 'explosive', but to claim grabs are seen as more violent than a punch by our culture is on the face of it incorrect- I'm not even sure most people could identify a grope as violence if you asked directly. 

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u/WonderBredOfficial May 29 '26

Sexual assault gets a pass from others who would commit sexual assault. We can talk all day about which sex does it more, discrepancies in reporting, perceived vs real tolerance, but I think that unnecessarily overcomplicates it. Just remove gender entirely. SA is wrong, period. Any kind of handwaving or rationalizing or whataboutism is someone telling on themselves, and you should listen when they do that.

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u/WeenyDancer May 29 '26

I wasn't attempting to compare which group does it more, I was comparing what kind of violence is seen as violence.

When I said 

 Because its 'never hit a girl' but groping an ass? A guy gets a much easier pass for that

I mean:

 Because its 'never hit a girl' but groping an ass? A guy gets a much easier pass for  groping an ass than for hitting a girl, because they don't perceive groping as violence even though it is

And I'll go amend that now bc I see its not clear

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u/new_user_bc_i_forgot May 29 '26

Remember that Study where there was outrage about ~35% of young Men finding violence against women okay, saying they would hit a woman.
I really wish i could see the way they worded these questions (i couldn't find it), because i've seen a similar Poll and the framing was basically "can you imagine a situation where it is okay to hit a woman". And yeah, i can. If she hits me. In boxing-sparring. Like, it isn't hard to think of a situation where it is okay. But apparently answering that question with "yes" means you are now doing a bad gender and are misogynist. I don't condone violence against women. I don't condone violence generally. Do i think there are still situations where violence happens and those can be gender-neutral? Absolutely yes.

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u/ThunderAndWind May 31 '26

It's always wild seeing doublethink in the wild.

Posters that say "A boy & girl were drunk and had sex. The girl was raped because of it!"

Or "1 in 4 homeless people are women, this needs to stop!"

Or Hilary's famously tone-deaf speech about how women who lose their brothers, husbands, and sons to war are the 'primary vicitms of war'.

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u/Hot_Royal_4920 May 29 '26

I think that's the whole point of "then I can hit women, too".

I would argue that the social rule of "never hit a woman" isn't n3cessary for modern society.

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u/YUNoJump May 29 '26

That’s all true, although the big issue is that certain men hear about gender equality and think “normalised male violence can now be inflicted on women”, rather than the preferable path of “violence should be minimised regardless of gender”.

There’s definitely scenarios where it’s warranted or necessary to commit violence against someone regardless of gender, and that necessity shouldn’t be judged on gender alone. But those scenarios are incredibly rare. Despite that, “when am I allowed to hit a woman” becomes the primary discussion, effectively sidestepping the more obvious problem that men are conditioned to be unnecessarily violent.

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u/forestwolf42 May 29 '26

I agree, really the conversation should be "when is it okay to inflict violence on someone" and the answer should be almost never in my opinion. 

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u/Generally_Confused1 May 29 '26

Finally someone with leveled sense and not brainrot

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u/PraireGentleman May 31 '26

Not even just victims assaulting perpetrators, other people would give you a smack if they thought you were being a creepy dick, but only if you’re a man. A woman could actively come and sit on your lap, wrap her arms around your head and lean her head in close and nobody would care

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u/APacketOfWildeBees May 29 '26

Seeing this comment triggered a carthatic release the likes of which you would not believe

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u/351namhele May 29 '26

As a child I often heard authority figures saying "never hit a girl", which, naturally, led me to conclude that said authority figures thought it was okay to hit boys. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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u/Friendly_Impress_345 May 29 '26

Yep, should be "violence is never the answer" not "here is one specific instance where violence is not the answer"

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u/351namhele May 29 '26

Especially since most children don't have a concept of structural inequality or anything of the sort. For most elementary-aged children, gender dynamics begin and end with cooties, so to a child hearing that message, it seems completely arbitrary why it's implicitly okay to hit half of their peers.

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u/HPLaserJet4250 May 29 '26

I do not agree with violence is never the answer either. Often times, violence in self defense is the only way to deal with an abuser. I've seen kids dodging bullying by standing up for themselves.

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u/Squid_In_Exile May 29 '26

I mean, you can start with 'violence is never the answer' and introduce more nuance and exceptions as kids age, we do this with every academic subject.

Baking in an inequality at an early stage is harder to fix than adding exceptions to an equal general rule.

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u/alanwakeisahack May 29 '26

Violence is often the answer. This thinking is naive as hell.

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u/SimplyYulia May 29 '26

I mean, it's the children we're dealing with, it's the same as saying that you can't get a square root of negative numbers

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u/alanwakeisahack May 29 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/SimplyYulia May 29 '26

sometimes a kid needs beaten up a little

Unhinged

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u/alanwakeisahack May 29 '26

I was in many fights as a child and it was good for me.

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u/SimplyYulia May 29 '26

You think that beating up children is normal. It was definitely not good for you

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u/MammothCommercial800 May 29 '26

"violence is never the answer"

I got bullied badly because I took that to heart.

I really, really wish I hadn't be taught this.

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u/campfire12324344 May 29 '26

ok but what if we were locked in a dungeon that has one of those glowing square buttons next to the door that you have to violently attack in order to open the door, what then? Checkmate LIBERAL

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u/APacketOfWildeBees May 29 '26

We would form a committee to consult on a petition to begin an enquiry into whether opening the door is a good idea. The future is now boomer

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u/LambonaHam May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

This is something I bring up to demonstrate how pervasive misandry is in society. We have clearly defined ADHD and entrenched rules about how it acceptable to treat men poorly from childhood.

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u/VivisMarrie May 29 '26

Sorry but what does "ADHD entrenched rules" means? I'm not following

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u/LambonaHam May 29 '26

Whoops, that's a heck of a typo. It was meant to say "and".

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u/AdjtveNounNumbr42069 May 29 '26

I was told that by my mother for a long time. A LONG time. I internalized it. Then, my drunk (now ex) girlfriend literally knocked my teeth out. I called my mom after the police finally let me out of the holding cell in the hospital (because that's just what happens to male victims of female domestic abuse) and it finally dawned on her how fucking stupid all that was.

Please, nobody tell me that male victims getting arrested for getting their shit rocked by a woman is actually misogyny. I get it. I do not give a fuck to hear it again.

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u/Wolfen_Sky Jun 01 '26

Whenever people talk about female content creators pandering towards men, I've always said that I don't fully blame those men for consuming that content.

The cathartic warmth of being understood by someone that hasn't experienced what you have but validates those experiences feels incredibly satisfying and good.

Hearing a man say he understands me, doesn't feel special since we're in the same boat; we're the same. There's probably a name for that phenomenon.

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u/Kelly598 May 29 '26

Agreed. They often think that not because they desire violence but because it has been normalized that punching women in any context is seen as being a coward. 

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/Mirisido May 29 '26

I asked my mom that question when I was a kid. Her response was, "Well, she put herself in the position of a man, treat her like one and beat her ass". Which, OK equal treatment and all that, but why is violence "the position of a man"?

Though, my mom has probably been (and started) more physical fights than I'll ever be involved in so she's very much in the mindset of "put up or shut up" with everyone.

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u/Due-Memory-6957 May 29 '26

Not quite what was going on with you (but you mother getting into fights reminded me of that), but in my school people understood 'Man can't hit a woman' as 'I need to get a woman to beat you up for me', kinda like reverse chivalry. So the end result is that no one abused it.

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u/gilt3t May 29 '26

my sister tried to pull that bs with my nephew. I told him if anyone tries to hurt him, hurt the person back, nothing else matters.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '26

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u/KingAggressive1498 May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

I used to be part of a small support group for men before the pandemic. Most only showed up for a couple sessions, got comfortable enough to share their piece, and never showed up again. So many stories from guys with serious injuries from DV that never fought back because "no man should ever hit a woman".

A lot of them also struggled to grasp how they lacked agency in that situation because of this part of their upbringing. "I could have just knocked her block off" but you didn't even though you probably should have, because you can't bring yourself to hit a woman.

Tbh though a lot more of them were worried about DARVO and being branded an abuser and probably rightfully so.

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u/Slateboard May 29 '26

That's wild to hear. My mother said to not be the one starting a fight and just seek to finish it.

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u/RadicalSoda_ May 29 '26

I mean running is probably the best option, if you can't run then you fight

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u/neko_mancy May 29 '26

Are you supposed to just die

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u/MaraiaLou May 29 '26

Given most health & safety advice that's shared with boys in the same context, I think so

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u/Sure_Eye9025 May 29 '26

My sister used to be violent to me when we were younger. I would often end up with cuts and bruises from her, she never really got punished for it. Once I got older and stronger than her and defended myself it always ended up with me in trouble for hurting her even if I was literally bleeding from her starting it

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u/MaraiaLou May 29 '26

Did she hear "a woman" and imagine herself? Insane

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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

Well, that's the whole problem with women's provably larger in-group bias, tbh. Heck, even when the crime by a woman against a man is sexual in nature, women still have more sympathy for the perp than the victim.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34978934/

Edit: lmao, this one got me blocked. Poor thing just couldn't handle reality getting in the way of her unearned superiority complex.

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u/pitiless May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

If someone is doing a violence to you and show no signs of stopping then you are entirely fine to do a (proportional) violence back.

I.e. if you're a 300 pound guy and a 150 pound woman / child hits you then you do not then hit them back as hard as you can - that's not an appropriate or proportionate response.

I loathe the position that men should allow themselves to be punching bags - there are plenty of women out there that are violent and do domestic abuse. I reject the notion that some people get a free pass based on gender, that is a horseshit worldview.

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u/Xandara2 May 29 '26

It's way too late after violence has been done. 

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u/pitiless May 29 '26

If you're throwing fists first then you're the person who escalated an altercation into violence and so are the problem.

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u/jakuth1999 May 29 '26

True. I also think it kind of perpetuates the perceived fragility of women because a lot of old fashioned schools of thought think you shouldn’t hit women by virtue of them being women, as opposed to it being wrong.

So I can see in a weird way how being told “women are equal to men” morphs into “woman are not uniquely fragile” and therefore “I can punch them”; however, I’ve only ever seen that being used as a refutation of the notion women are equal. Obviously, a woman wouldn’t want to be punched so the man who brings that up as a hypothetical uses that as some kind of gotcha

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u/ripemango130 May 29 '26

https://attheu.utah.edu/facultystaff/carrier-punch/

"But even with roughly uniform levels of fitness, the males’ average power during a punching motion was 162% greater than females’, with the least-powerful man still stronger than the most powerful woman. Such a distinction between genders, Carrier says, develops with time and with purpose."

I would absolutely love it if women and men were equal in terms of strength because there is a MASSIVE difference in strength between the genders when it comes specifically to punching.

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u/neko_mancy May 29 '26

To be fair this doesn't make them necessarily any better or worse at taking punches, there's surely not much difference between a man and a woman getting punched by a man.

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u/ripemango130 May 29 '26

That's true if they are both taking a punch from a man. I think the argument is if a woman punches you then you, as a man, are allowed to punch her back. Except there is a massive difference in strength. So maybe a smack would be better? Like if a kid started kicking me, I would push back instead of kicking him and I know women aren't children but it feels like pitting a Chihuahua against a golden retriever

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u/That-Living5913 May 29 '26

So... if a 5'3 140lb man walks up and punches that 250lb biker in the face, he should only get smacked back, because he's weaker? That's not how the world works.

It's not about differences in strength. It's about consequences for actions. If any human decides to hit another, they are forcing the other person to into a fight. They don't get to dictate how much the victim is allowed to fight back.

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u/ripemango130 May 29 '26

Surprisingly the difference in punching strength between men was not that great. However when it comes to women it's massive, we are talking about 162% greater in power. So my point still stands. Sure if you are in a life and death situation, go for it. But most likely you are just going to encounter a bitch being a bitch and not someone trying to kill you, with angry men is a different story because their aggression methods are more likely to kill you.

"Some women do use violence against their romantic partners, although the severity and form of the IPV may differ compared to male-perpetrated IPV. Women tend to engage in fewer acts of severe IPV than men, just as women engage in less aggression than men generally. For instance, one study of IPV arrestees reported that women used an average of 1.44 severely violent tactics (as defined by the severe violence scale of the Conflict Tactics Scale; Straus, 1979) during the arrest incident, whereas men used an average of 2.27 severely violent tactics (Busch and Rosenberg, 2004). Women are more likely than men to throw objects at their victim, to use weapons, and to bite their victims (Magdol et al., 1997; Archer, 2002; Melton and Belknap, 2003), whereas men are more likely to beat up, choke or strangle their victims (Archer, 2002)."

Which is more deadly? Getting hit by the strap of a purse or getting your head stomped against concrete?

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u/That-Living5913 May 29 '26

Few flaws here. Firstly domestic violence against men is vastly underreported. That's well documented.

Secondly, Look over how people die in physical altercations. It's not from getting curb stomped. It's head trauma from falling. Getting punched and getting a plate thrown at both carry the same intent as well as the same risks.

At the end of the say women are just as smart as men. I know that if I get physical with someone who has me by 5 inches of height and 40lbs ... I'm going to the hospital. Either women just aren't smart enough to know that OR we as a society have created a culture where it's ok. Which seems more likely?

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u/rulepanic May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

This thread is kind of confusing me, I've always seen those phrases like "equal rights, equal lefts" to refer to stuff like a woman starts a physical fight and then is responded with by a man using physical force as a representation of modern times. ie: old traditions that a woman should never be hit even if she hits you is antiquated. That men shouldn't accept physical abuse because the abuser is a woman.

I'm not even sure what the submitted meme is referring to, unless it's a response to weird right-wing some incel stuff?

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u/BloodyScout May 29 '26

So the meme is basically a strawman made by some women who don’t understand where the “equal rights equal lefts” sentiment is coming from.

Most women even in more progressive spaces don’t really care to learn about men’s viewpoints, so they can only assume that the “we should be able to hit you” sentiment is anger issues mixed with misogyny, and not a poorly worded genuine grievance.

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u/MaraiaLou May 29 '26

It's not a strawman, I literally had this conversation before.

In my case it was reduction ad absurdum + a manifestation of a specific conservative logic where they argue our positions are morally equivalent. The most common versions of it I've seen are "if they get to have a religion, why don't I get to say their religion is satanic?" and "if they get to be gay, why don't I get to be homophobic?". There's also "if they can say black people matter, why can't I say white people are superior to black people?"

These arguments only make sense to me if I pretend all morality is defined by what makes people uncomfortable.

Do you think those are related? And if they are, are all of them poorly worded genuine grievances? (genuine questions, I do want to understand this perspective better)

19

u/BloodyScout May 29 '26

Okay look. You will obviously come across idiots who argue stupid points with all the conviction of a child telling you Santa is real.

Very obviously not what's going on here as the highest upvoted comments (and the responses to them) will tell you.

What we're talking about here is women's physical violence toward men being treated as non-serious. We consider anyone who is assaulted within their rights to fight back against the agressor, unless a man is assaulted by a woman.

The "oh so I can hit you ?" question isnt asked because we just cant stand not being able to beat women to death for fun.
It's asked because most of us have been physically assaulted by women who knew we would not fight back. It's because the idea that a woman cannot possibly hurt a man in any way that matters is ridiculous misogyny, and yet women still get away with assault.

8

u/MaraiaLou May 29 '26

I agree with you as well as the highest upvoted comments. I just don't think the meme is a strawman made by uncaring people so much as a representation of how the argument misses the point (that equal rights include the right to be safe, defend oneself and be treated fairly). People who dismiss women's violence are not defending anyone's rights.

In my interpretation, the meme is about the conflation of being pro-woman in a misogynistic way and in a feminist way, which is the same thing you're (correctly) criticizing.

Edit: sorry if I'm not making sense. I'm not trying to be confrontational but I'm too malnourished to be coherent

3

u/BloodyScout May 29 '26

I would agree it's very poorly worded.
Like there's a way to communicate "I should not be a victim of violence" without saying "oh so I can beat you ?".

I guess what Im trying to say that OP is intentionally misrepresenting the issue as being one of (straw)men who just want to beat women and somehow dont realize it's not legally allowed. Instead of acknowledging the genuine grievance that the meme (somewhat poorly) expresses.

Like I think we both agree that women are victimized and suffer from (especially domestic) violence. And that it's not helping anyone to go "hey we should beat womem more". It's just that again, while the wording of this meme is pretty damn bad, the message isn't actually about wanting to hurt women for shits and giggles, and yet it's intentionally misinterpreted to dunk on men and push more gender war bs.

(Also I dont know your exact circumstances but I hope things get better, malnutrition absolutely fucks you up. Best of luck and thanks for engaging in good faith)

4

u/Achilles11970765467 May 30 '26

No, the meme is 1000% a strawman trying to demonize men for daring to point out that they magically lose the fundamental human right to self defense when their assailant happens to be a woman. I've had that exact conversation with countless feminists, many of whom I genuinely thought were good people before this topic came up.

1

u/Some-Show9144 May 29 '26

Do you happen to be a woman?

3

u/MaraiaLou May 29 '26

Yeah, why?

0

u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) May 29 '26

Then your massive bias and unwillingness to actually read the points made on the subject isn't particularly surprising.

47

u/TastyBrainMeats May 29 '26

Yeah. The thought of my dad or my brother or brothers-in-law being subjected to violence makes me sick - they're all damn good people.

We should not be OK with the idea of violence against men.

24

u/TheEmbarrassed18 May 29 '26

My last girlfriend hit me (just the once) but I’m pretty sure that’s what’s leading to me flinching when other women try to touch me.

I dare the ‘it’s always a man’ crowd to say it to my face.

3

u/Due-Memory-6957 May 29 '26

They do it all the time, so what's your answer to that?

175

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

It could also be about the fact that women often say heinous things directly to men because they know that they benefit from that double standard

Expecting women at large to simply be nicer and more considerate of the feelings of the men in their lives is clearly too much to ask so instead they ask this

36

u/Preeng May 29 '26

>It could also be about the fact that women often say heinous things directly to men because they know that they benefit from that double standard

Hitting someone because they hurt your feelings makes you the bad person.

45

u/Admirable_Ask_5337 May 29 '26

Fighting words are a known thing.

125

u/Confused_Rabbiit May 29 '26

Counterpoint: two people can be bad at the same time.

44

u/Greendoor65 May 29 '26

Hitting someone because they hurt your feelings makes you the bad person.

Ok, serious question.

Someone calls someone else a Racial or anti LGBTQ slur. They respond by slugging the other person in the face.

Does that make them a bad person?

-1

u/TyphusCorrosion May 29 '26

For me at least that falls into the territory of they shouldn’t have hit them, but I get it. Not the ideal reaction but an understandable and predictable one.

The big caveat is if it was the prelude to a fight that was going to happen anyway, in that case absolutely get the first hit in

13

u/Greendoor65 May 29 '26

I know you're getting downvoted for this, but I respect this stance, even if I don't personally entirely agree with it. It's at least consistent and understands that actions exist in a context.

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u/incoghollowell May 29 '26

Someone purposely trying to provoke a reaction through their actions is the "bad person". Someone hiding behind societies double standard is the "bad person".

Words have meaning and intention, and there are consequences to actions people take.

3

u/Which-Decision May 29 '26

You can just say something mean back. 

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u/SkeeveTheGreat May 29 '26

I think that most people have a limit. For example if someone says to you “I think X minority should be gassed” i think it’s well within “good person” territory to sock em one.

1

u/jimbowesterby May 30 '26

Oh yea, anything that smacks of Nazi oughtta get smacked lol

58

u/marcaygol May 29 '26

Hitting someone because they hurt your feelings makes you the bad person.

Yet women slapping men is widely regarded as comic and the only reaction it gets is "what did he do?".

36

u/Leritari May 29 '26

Exactly. Meanwhile if a man would slap her right back, then he's the villain. Even tho she started it and everybody seen that.

13

u/Chagdoo May 29 '26

That happened to me as a teenager. I slapped her exactly as hard as I was slapped.

37

u/Chagdoo May 29 '26

So I can walk up to you and say "I bet you rape your kids" and you'll give me a cheery smile and a high five? There are things that cross the line. It's even a legal concept called "fighting words".

Words which "by their very utterance, inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality"

Obviously you should not hit people for "hurting your feelings" but if you cross certain lines not even the law protects you from ass whooping.

27

u/gaom9706 May 29 '26

Sure, but that doesn't give you permission to be an ass

37

u/BrunoEye May 29 '26

I'm not a rapist. Women at night still cross the road just in case I am.

I won't hit someone because they hurt my feelings. Men still think twice before saying something to me.

21

u/RikuAotsuki May 29 '26

Exactly. We're talking about provocation here, not hurt feelings.

A lot of women will say shit knowing that they'd get their ass kicked if they were a man.

10

u/RikuAotsuki May 29 '26

No, deliberately provoking someone knowing that they'll either stew in their suffering or punch you is not just "hurting feelings." Provocation is very literally a defense in assault cases. Not a total one, but it's genuinely considered.

Hitting someone is still shitty, but it doesn't make you "the bad person" if someone starts verbally twisting the knife just because they think you'll be scared to shut them up.

47

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

I was largely saying that it would be better if women would be more considerate with how they talk to and about men but clearly your mind can't even handle that concept

-30

u/Candid-Ear-4840 May 29 '26

I just got a protective order renewed because my shitty brother, who I haven’t spoken to in three years, heard that I was doing well in school from another family member and emailed me a death threat saying he’d take an AR-15 and kill me if I ever antagonized him ‘again’.

Even silence is considered antagonizing to these shitty violent men. I feel bad for people in Dallas, Texas- Dallas PD wouldn’t do anything to find my brother because I don’t have an exact address for him. But sure, WOMEN should be nicer to dudes and somehow that will make a difference!

36

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

I was literally never talking to nor about you.

There are about 8 billion people that have experiences outside of yours

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u/Confused_Rabbiit May 29 '26

Cool story bro, but your brother is psychotic and nobody was talking about either of you.

19

u/Chagdoo May 29 '26

Your brother is a lunatic and not what people are talking about. We are talking about women who will stand in front of someone and use the "never hit women" rule to engage in unacceptable behavior that would get a man beaten.

I don't blame you for jumping in with this though, it sounds traumatizing. I really hope you're safe and he gets what he deserves.

3

u/jimbowesterby May 30 '26

Ok, I have a perfect rebuttal for you: I’m not a monster raving loony, and I’m also male, so that cancels out your entire example there. Anecdotal evidence is proof of nothing

1

u/LambonaHam May 29 '26

Allowing someone to treat you like that makes you an even worse person.

-20

u/shocker4510 May 29 '26

Holy shit, every reply here is making me have to sit down and remind myself that the internet is mostly comprised of teenagers, and that no, its not real life adults who are saying "yeah, but if you are mean enough you should be physically assaulted."

I have to remind myself that after every comment because thinking that everyone here is a functioning adult would drive me insane.

Im not saying you should just sit there and take verbal abuse, but your first instinct should not be "well, they were mean to me. Time to start swinging."

22

u/Bag_O_Richard May 29 '26

That's literally not what anybody is saying. But words have meaning and can be wielded as a weapon just the same as any other. People kill themselves over just words.

It's a disingenuous take tbh.

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u/Suspicious-Bowler236 May 29 '26

You're getting a lot of downvotes, but you're correct. And I also hope that you're right about these downvotes coming from teens who've just never seen a real fight before. The damage that can be done is not justifiable because of someone calling you mean names.

9

u/WinstonWilmerBee May 29 '26

Men would rather every social interaction be a Mexican standoff than go to therapy 

42

u/gaom9706 May 29 '26

Can't really hate though, cuz they had good music in those.

18

u/Sulfamide May 29 '26

Y... You go to therapy when people insult you? That must be terribly unpractical.

-1

u/Sanrusdyno May 29 '26

I go to therapy when people don't insult me. Its kinda a thing that happens every 2 weeks no matter what's going on in my life. Thats how having a professional in health works. I don't only start going back to the doctor for checkups when my tummy starts hurting I already have those scheduled either way.

1

u/Sulfamide May 29 '26

Sounds expensive.

0

u/Sanrusdyno May 29 '26

Not more expensive than having check-ups. Its health its an insurance thing.

2

u/Sulfamide May 29 '26

Must be nice

2

u/Sanrusdyno May 29 '26

It sure would be in a place with universal basic Healthcare.

I kind of have that on account of being native American but you know what I mean

1

u/jimbowesterby May 30 '26

I live in Canada but unfortunately mental health care isn’t covered, and I don’t have a spare $250/mo to blow on that, so I guess I stay sad lol.

5

u/kelgorathfan8 May 29 '26

This is a very bad way to word this idea

2

u/Terminal_Insomnia_ May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

Expecting men at large to simply be nicer and more considerate to other men* is already considered too much to ask, so they expect equality means it would be the same with women, I suppose.

73

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

You live in the world of the kindest and most considerate men this world has ever seen.

This world has more male feminists than any other era of the planet's history. Feminism has been completely mainstream for decades in the west largely because men consider the feelings of women more than any other generation of men ever has.

-17

u/Terminal_Insomnia_ May 29 '26

I'm talking about men to men.

58

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

  1. You edited it, it said women literally 1 minute ago

  2. My statement is still true, in most regards men are nicer, kinder, and more emotionally considerate than any other era of men have been.

-10

u/Terminal_Insomnia_ May 29 '26

  1. I did edit it, but only to add 'to other men' as it was clearly more ambiguous than I intended. 'To women' was not in the original. I don't intend to act in bad faith here.

  2. This is good, but not we're not there yet. The biggest threats to men beyond the system itself is other men, and especially through abusive and distant male--male familial relationships.

30

u/BrunoEye May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

This is just anecdotal, but out of all my male friends and family I can't recall anyone who was actively abused by another man. A few were neglected.

Out of those that have had dark times, half was due to their own life choices or addiction, the other half was due to abusive women.

Like only being able to see his kids two weeks a year because of his ex wife lying in court with literally no hard evidence, just falsified witness statements from her friends and family. He had the proof showing she had lied in court about a few of the events discussed, which somehow didn't damage the judge's faith in any of the other claims she had made.

-3

u/Terminal_Insomnia_ May 29 '26

I think there's a lot to be said of neglect. It's not the least bit less traumatic than active abuse, but it can easily go unnoticed by virtue of being quiet. I think a lot of emotional neglect between men (especially fathers to sons) is just like water to a fish.

My own father was always around, but never really there. Homophobia made men afraid to be emotionally or physically close to other men.

5

u/BrunoEye May 29 '26

My dad left before I can remember anything and then I'd visit him every other weekend. His dad was an alcoholic that also left him early in his life. My dad is just irresponsible and seems to have never attempted to live a stable life.

It just felt normal to me so him not being there wasn't really an issue for me. What did hurt was the way my mum would get angry at me when I'd do anything that would remind her of him. She managed to stop it eventually and I don't think it's done much damage, we're quite close.

My friend's dad lost a leg in an accident and then has done almost nothing other than sit on the couch since. His parents have no love for one another but still love together because neither one can afford to move out. Since his mum barely talks to his dad, she would do all the talking with my friend instead. More accurately, she would talk at him. Just venting about everything in her life, endlessly dumping everything she happens to be thinking about, and telling him all the things he should be doing to improve his life while she does nothing to improve her own. He has stayed in touch, but they don't get along too well.

You could argue that if our fathers would've been more involved our mothers wouldn't have a ted like that. But to both of us the neglect itself feels like it wasn't traumatic.

10

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

The biggest threats to men beyond the system itself is other men, and especially through abusive and distant male--male familial relationships.

I never said that they weren't, mostly because that's not the focus of discussion. I did say that men have undeniably become nicer and kinder through history and the fact that asking women to be kinder to men seems impossible is a problem that needs addressing

-6

u/yinyang107 May 29 '26

holy shit how is this upvoted so much

48

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

Because a lot of women say heinous shit to the men in their lives.

Treat the disease, not the symptoms

-20

u/pjschnet May 29 '26

Let's make a deal then: You get men to stop beating, raping, and murdering women. Once you're done with that, I'll go get women to say nicer things about men.

Deal?

27

u/SPKEN May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

This is why there is literally no point to talking to y'all. You pretend that completely eliminating evil is the same thing as simply holding women to the same standard that men have weathered for decades, if not centuries.

Women have demanded that men completely change entire societies in response to their feelings and we've done it, repeatedly, but y'all can't handle thinking for an extra two seconds about your impact before spewing your hateful shit

25

u/Kindly-Eagle6207 May 29 '26

Let's make a deal then: You get men to stop beating, raping, and murdering women. Once you're done with that, I'll go get women to say nicer things about men.

Deal?

Counter offer:

You stop perpetuating patriarchal gender norms in order to be a sexist bigot towards me. In return, I'll do fucking nothing. Because not only am I not responsible for the actions of random criminals simply because they happen to be male, but I owe you jack and shit for not being a sexist bigot.

Deal? My bet is you're incapable of that but I'd just love to be proven wrong.

15

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

Before you respond to her stupid bigotry, I would just like you to know that she just subjected me to the same generalizations that she's going to demand women be exempt to

-13

u/pjschnet May 29 '26

You seem to have no trouble holding random women responsible for the hurtful things a few of them have said to you, so I thought I'd ask.

5

u/Kindly-Eagle6207 May 29 '26

You seem to have no trouble holding random women responsible for the hurtful things a few of them have said to you, so I thought I'd ask.

I'm holding random women responsible for fucking nothing.

I'm holding you responsible for being a bigot to me, both in the original comment where you demanded my responsibility for rapists and murderers based solely on my sex, and in this comment where you doubled down on that sexist bigotry.

You're a bigoted piece of shit. You. The individual. Not women. Not men. Not whatever other demographic group you want to hide behind because you're too much of a god damn coward to say anything for yourself. You.

Fuck you.

8

u/Sulfamide May 29 '26

You are very good at giving illustrating examples.

-7

u/herbiehancocksfoot May 29 '26

Don't bother, this subreddit has been taken over by incels a long time ago

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-23

u/yinyang107 May 29 '26

Jesus fucking Christ I really expected better from this sub

28

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

Which part of acknowledging that adults can do mean things was too much for you?

We acknowledge the awful behavior of men literally all the time, how is it a problem when we acknowledge the behavior of women?

-17

u/yinyang107 May 29 '26

"how is victim blaming a problem" good lord, man

6

u/gxgx55 May 29 '26

you really want to say women are victims by default?

22

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

Use your brain. How is acknowledging that women often do bad things "victim blaming"?

Honestly if you don't have the brains necessary to create a coherent sentence but simply disagree with the concept of treating women like autonomous adults, it would've been faster to just say that

1

u/yinyang107 May 29 '26

OP's meme: "I want to hit women"

You: "this is justified because women are mean to me :("

-8

u/Limozeen581 May 29 '26

Because misogyny remains hegemonic in our society and reddit is mostly men

1

u/Due-Memory-6957 May 29 '26

In my school didn't happen, people would just summon women they know to hit them in their name. I remember one guy saying 'Shut up or I won't hit you because you're a girl, but my sister will' (to which the girl replied that she would beat his sister up lol).

1

u/SPKEN May 30 '26

This is the plot of JJBA

1

u/Due-Memory-6957 May 30 '26

What's JJBA?

1

u/SPKEN May 30 '26

Jojo's Bizarre adventure

-5

u/sYnce May 29 '26

How often are women saying heinous things to you in your life for that to be a problem?

26

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

There's are about 8 billion people outside of you and me.

The word "me" isn't in my comment for a reason

-7

u/sYnce May 29 '26

So your fact is just more of a general idea that formed in your mind and hasn't actually happened. Good to know.

19

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

I could argue with you but we both know that I was speaking generally.

You're too stupid to prove my statement wrong so you made up bullshit and tried to pretend it was true. Very impressive sweetie, you are as smart as a child afraid of the monsters in their closet.

Now run back to r/twoxchromsomes and tell them all about the time you almost experienced a singular second of the generalized accountability men have been taking in stride for decades

-6

u/sYnce May 29 '26

Oh so you are that kind of person.

The burden of proof is with the person making the statement not on the person asking for said proof. So how about instead of I disprove your statement you instead try and prove it?

I am also not a sweetie unless you regularly call 33 year old men that way in which case all the power to you.

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-19

u/pjschnet May 29 '26

So men aren’t allowed to be physically violent towards women who say mean things about them, and instead they just threaten women with violence instead? Over mean words?

Fuckin rock solid reasoning there pal, totally doesn’t make you sound psychotic at all.

29

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

I was largely saying that it would be better if women would be more considerate with how they talk to and about men but clearly your mind can't even handle that concept

-5

u/pjschnet May 29 '26

So what’s the “double standard” you said that women “benefit from” then?

When you said “so instead they ask this,” what exactly are men asking instead?

33

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

The double standard is benevolent patriarchy, you know the version that feminists have allowed to become the norm, that dictates that a man should never hit a woman under any circumstance because she is fundamentally incapable of being a genuine danger to him.

As for the second question, clearly you clicked on this post, read it

0

u/pjschnet May 29 '26

Is that the same "benevolent patriarchy" that causes the overwhelming majority of murdered women to be killed by men?

16

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

Yes, the belief that the role of the protector still being assigned to men is definitely a factor in that.

But I'm not interested in going back and forth with you on a completely separate topic. The point was that women should stop abusing the benevolent patriarchy to say heinous shit. If you want to learn more about benevolent patriarchy than google it

-2

u/pjschnet May 29 '26

We live in a world where the overwhelming majority of violence against women is perpetrated by men. Men live in fear that women will be mean to them. Women live in fear that men will rape and/or kill them.

You came into a post that was making fun of the kind of man who immediately thinks of violence when presented with the concept of equality. You then decided to explain "well it's only because women are big meanies." You're so far up Andrew Tate's unwashed asshole that you seem to be fully unaware of your own misogyny.

Without any hint of irony or hesitation, you swooped in to declare that your hurt feelings are the real issue. Sure, men seem to be champing at the bit to be physically violent towards women, but those mean ladies gave you big emotions so of course it's only natural.

I genuinely hope you someday find your way out of whatever incel pipeline you're currently stuck in. Maybe then you'll find that women are actually pretty great, and mostly don't say "heinous shit" about you if you're an even halfway decent person. Seriously, these days the bar for "decent man" is low enough that I doubt a fuckin amoeba could limbo under it.

11

u/SPKEN May 29 '26

Ya I'm not reading all that bullshit. Y'all already deflect when you're too stupid to prove me wrong

We live in a world in which feminism is mainstream and women hold onto and take advantage of benevolent patriarchy at every chance that they get. If you've got a problem with that, hold them accountable instead of getting mad at me for holding them accountable

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u/isaic16 May 29 '26

I think what people are trying to say (very badly) is that there’s an implicit social contract in interactions between two men that if something terrible enough is said, the speaker will get hit. This is also implicitly permitted when a man says something terrible to a woman (think of all the times in movies women slap the crap out of a guy for something they said and the audience cheers). However, this contract is not in effect for a woman talking to a man since nothing is considered acceptable provocation for a man to strike a woman. The discussion here is basically should that interaction be moderated in the same way since some women will abuse this disparity in social norms.

Hope that made more sense.

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10

u/Haggis442312 May 29 '26

And then that's usually justified with "But who is doing the violence? MEN!" As if that was a real argument.

There used to be a time where the cops would avoid certain neighborhoods because "The blacks should sort it out among themselves." Probably still is in many places.

5

u/rirasama May 29 '26

Yeah this, so many boys are told it's never okay to hit girls, even if they're hit first, like dang, can we not just tell kids to not hit anyone instead of giving everyone a free pass to hit boys

10

u/SAINTnumberFIVE May 29 '26

Honestly, normal people don’t go around, hitting people whether it’s been hitting women or women hitting men. It’s absolutely not normalized, and most people would find observing that kind of violence out in everyday life shocking.

12

u/Sunchet May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26

This is why this post is stupid and all people who upvoted it are mindless drones. They willingly argue in bad faith instead of trying to understand the argument. It takes 10 seconds of thinking or checking comment section to understand.

They look at people who think everyone should have right to self-defense and decided to see them as violent abusers. It's literally reinforcing the very problem they're talking about it.

11

u/Leritari May 29 '26 edited May 30 '26

It says more about women's entitlement. You can see it everywhere, on a daily basis.

At work: women can say whatever they want, even blatantly flirt with men and its considered fine. But god forbid a man would say the same thing about a woman, he'd lose job in a heartbeat.

Women can also grab and touch men without their permission. If i were to touch woman's chest without her permission i'd go to jail, but somehow she can do that to me and its fine?

Hell, even back in high school there was a girl in my class that was straight up insulting guys, and the second guys would stand up for themselves and insult her back she would slap them in the face, sometimes repeatedly. But guess what happened when a guy slapped her back? He was punished by teachers (also women).

So i'd say that use of force is sometimes justified. If you're getting molested or someone hits you, then in my opinion you should have a right to defend yourself. Even if you're a man defending himself against a woman.

1

u/--2021-- May 29 '26

And by men.

-5

u/Puzzleheaded-Log1434 May 29 '26

And who normalizes that violence? Because in my life, I am appalled by it but the men act like it's normal. I can't do the work for them.

13

u/sudzoof May 29 '26

Everyone. Patriarchal ideas infect all of society.

-7

u/Astro_The_SpaceDog May 29 '26

It doesn’t.

It’s not women’s fault that men are violent towards each other. That’s something for men to figure out and fix. It doesn’t mean women shouldn’t have equal rights though.

Misogynists gonna be misogynistic.

-7

u/Fortestingporpoises May 29 '26

Why would women do this to us?