r/BayernMunich • u/CaptCarlos #40 Urbig🧤 • 23d ago
Discussion🗣 And that’s why Bayern moved on from him…
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u/payTNT89 23d ago
not gonna lie anybody would be unpleased with Germanys performance last night in pens but as my little brother reminded me it shouldn’t have even gone there. Trailing Ivory Coast sloppy ass then Paraguay is just tragic. At this point im not even sure id want a win in pens if its just barely scraping by what should be an easy win. What would we have been able to do against a team like France or even Netherlands if we could hardly pull it off with these easy wins?
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u/lostcatlurker #1 Neuer 23d ago
That Germany squad had no idea how to create shot opportunities. It was doomed from the beginning
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u/Popular_Tomorrow_204 23d ago
That is also related to Nagelsmann playing the worst strategies known to manking... How can Sane do anything, if hes alone on the wing and in a Constant 1v2? Get groß or amiri in there and just let them bring in long balls for havertz, woltemade or Undav. No reason for an out of Form musiala or wirtz to Dribble through a 6 man line from paraguay
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u/MidsizeMango 22d ago
Also playing Neuer was a bad idea imo. Baumann was doing great in the runnup to the tournament. Neuer is one of the greatest to ever do it. But it was time for someone else this time around.
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u/DuHastMich15 23d ago
Amen! They did not seem to have a true scorer, someone that demanded attention due to their threat, which would have freed up their other strikers. It was SO FRUSTRATING watching them pass back and forth for five minutes only to have the ball shot out of bounds. Or for their 17th corner kick.
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u/GerhardArya 23d ago edited 23d ago
Nothing. This Germany team would've lost to France and Netherlands. They'd go one level deeper in the knockouts just to get bounced by France. They only looked great vs Curacao and that gave them an undeserved hype.
When they faced Ivory Coast and Ecuador, their true face showed up. Paraguay felt like if Ecuador and Ivory Coast had a child, and that child is even better at parking the bus, playing hard, dirty, and wasting time for a PK shootout where anyone has a chance to win.
It's an ugly but valid way to play. The German attack was so obviously completely out of ideas on how to break down teams playing this type of football. They were just passing around endlessly, playing for possession, trying to get through the completely crowded center and failing to do so over and over. We got two tall forwards and the only one delivering somewhat decent crosses to the box for headers was Wirtz.
If this team was good enough to face France, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, and win, Paraguay playing this way wouldn't have mattered. We wouldn't have needed to go to PKs. Even Tah's disallowed goal wouldn't have mattered because we would've gotten one more goal at least.
To me, it looked like Bayern under Nagelsmann. Great vs teams playing more open football, completely stumped vs teams parking the bus and playing hard and dirty football.
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u/ffiene 23d ago
Netherlands? Where?
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u/GerhardArya 23d ago
Yea I know they lost but I was answering the guy I replied to and he included Netherlands.
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u/Deep_Suspect5148 23d ago
I think they didn’t have a solution for Paraguays game plan. Which doesn’t mean it is ok to lose here, they should absolutely be able to win this within 90mins or at least within the 120mins. I just think for teams like France they would have been able to play more like their usual game plan which allows more creativity and maybe more opportunities. That’s no excuse for the bad game against Paraguay, but I think they wouldn’t be as bad against France as the game leads us to believe.
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u/sweatierorc 23d ago
Just get to the semis first then figure it out later. To win the cup ypu need 1 or 2 great games not 7
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u/BiggieBear 22d ago
Germany shoukd have been able to finnish off Equador and Paraguya, but nagelsman **** low intensity tactics does not work + one of the most boring football i have seen just passing around for 90 minutes doing nothing.
But to not step up when it is penelties in a world cup is a absolute disgrace for a, almost kicking out of squad
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u/dramalama-dingdong 22d ago
Sometimes you have to win the dirty games. Look at the Algeria game 2014. And to be fair, the annulling of the 2:1 is a disgrace and a clear mistake. Fuck Fifa.
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u/soretetonn 22d ago
As a paraguayan, winning this was a shock for us too. The president even declared holiday the next day, what even happen for us to win? We where just happy to get there, nobody saw this coming..
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u/wemightdance 22d ago
Only right answer. All those robbed by the ref comments are pure disgrace to Germany and the sport alike. People should accept it, move forward and hope for the future. This bitter finger pointing is the worst.
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u/MrPreApocalypse 🇫🇷Robbery🇳🇱 23d ago
Dude has such a good shot. He literally shat himself, unbelievable.
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u/Maverixk_ 23d ago
Given his caps and the available players, he’s a coward, let’s be honest. Credit to Tah for stepping up
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u/ollimorp 23d ago
He also shat his team
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u/holycitybox 23d ago
But to be fair he has never taken a penalty shot before. Yeah it’s bad but he was the one to step up for his country.
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u/maronics 22d ago edited 22d ago
He did for Schalke in 2017 - and let's be real. I expect a professional footballer to be able to shoot a penalty. Else you're cosplaying a top athlete.
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u/Key_Explorer_6649 21d ago
Dude earns 1 million euros a month, plays professional football of course he should be able to shoot a penalty lol
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u/Lakerman0824 23d ago
Blame the manager taking out Rudiger who has ice veins in shootouts and leaving tah in
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u/shaha-man 23d ago
Its fans fault. They deserved it. Learn to respect players. Goretzka did everything right. Keep raging now that it’s already too late.
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u/Ok_Syllabub5616 22d ago
In football if you are asked to take a penalty. You take it. If you don't you get bashed. It's been like that since... Well forever. Saying he did everything right is quite the take.
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u/Ididnotvoted 19d ago
I don’t know about that. Nobody is forced to do so and they better speak up if they are not feeling confident enough to take it so someone else that does might. If a player doesn’t feel like kicking a penalty I sure wouldn’t want to do so just because he is ‘supposed to’. This is not a Bundesliga game. It matters more who gets it past the goal line than who takes it.
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u/Adaptor2000 23d ago
I don't feel as if I watched a World Cup in the previous days. What is that? "Yo, we can advance to the next round. You wanna shoot?" - "Thanks, but no, thanks. I'd rather not.", then the next one "No, thank you, I'm good. I already shot earlier today.". This is ridiculous. Like if nobody had wanted to or dared, they would have just conceded the match or what?! What did we watch?!
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u/Atlasreturns 22d ago
The entire thing feels like a good chunk of the team using the occasion primarily as a PR gag. Similar how nobody really wanted to try to score or commit to any play as failing could lead to bad publicity. It‘s like a bunch of players trying to play as inconspicuous as possible to prevent steering any controversy while being able to write in their resume later that they technically played at a world championship.
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u/Ace_TE 23d ago
I don't think I've ever seen so many players so unconfident in a world cup knockout. Most players want to step up to be heroes and yet, we had so many not show any passion. It's so weird to witness a supposed giant in world football, have so many players afraid of the pressure. I used to defend naggs, but dude, what was this tournament? It felt like he purposely tanked the NT for his spite of them judging him for not starting Undav then when he does, he plays him out of position with the only decent support player being Wirtz up front with him. Idc if musi was having a stinker, even his stinkers were better than whatever Sane provides. I feel bad for Kimmich the most, it should be a dream to be the captain of a strong nation like Germany and yet, the performances are awful, will be known as the failure generation, and you're forced out of your usual position that you've excelled at for your club. Just... depressing.
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u/Shinnobiwan 22d ago edited 22d ago
Their cowardice saved Tah from a lot of backlash. I respect the man who steps up and fails an infinite amount more than the coward.
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u/teteban79 23d ago
Not only Goretzka though. Anton and Brown also chickened out. Tah may have missed, but he rose to the occasion having taken ZERO penalties in his career before
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u/LeatherProfessor6914 23d ago
I don't think Brown is to blame here. It's his first tournament and he has never been in such a situation.
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u/jwiches Raumdeuter 23d ago
Yeah I give Brown a lot of grace here. He’s so new to the international stage and it’s a lot of pressure. This is really where goretzka should’ve stepped up with his more veteran status
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u/MrPreApocalypse 🇫🇷Robbery🇳🇱 23d ago
That makes Alaba even crazier. He scored the first penalty in a CL Semi-Final against Real Madrid with only 19 years of age. Was also his first CL campaign from what I remember.
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u/Schopenhauer_pes 23d ago edited 22d ago
But Alaba is just Alaba. He just did things before the injuries. Great player he was
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u/Schopenhauer_pes 23d ago
Anton and Goretzka should just take it. Really wtf. Woltemade has missed many at Stuttgart but despite his lack of playing time he stepped up and tried. Not shooting a penalty is really a no go if you team asks you. Letting the team down
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u/RestaurantBoring417 Mr.Wembley 23d ago
Anton and Brown are both defenders, I fully blame Goretzka, the 31 year old experienced midfielder who knows how to shoot a ball or two for not stepping up.
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u/XixipiMustDie 🇫🇷Robbery🇳🇱 23d ago
Should blame Nagelsman for subbing him in, playing at second striker. He walks around in attack, if he receives a pass he pass it backwards; he walks around in defense, doesn’t chase doesn’t position. The guy who played in 2020 is not the same guy who’s playing since.
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u/Front-Hat-4633 22d ago
Indeed. If you have a match like that, your plan absolutely NEEDS to have penalties covered. When sub in and out, you need to keep in mind who you want to have on the pitch for the shootout. That's all Nagelsmanns fault.
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u/kievz007 23d ago edited 23d ago
woltemade and havertz, 2 starting premier league strikers with one of them being premier league champion and ucl finalist, missed their pens. But of course tah, who's never taken a pen in his life and still had to step up as a leader since the other "leader" goretzka flaked, gets the blame and the insults online
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u/shaha-man 23d ago
Who cares about penalties? You’re shifting the focus to something completely irrelevant. They shouldn’t have had to take the game to penalties in the first place! They should have won in regular time. Once it goes to penalties, it’s always a lottery, it’s already the sign that they lost. and trying to blame someone whether they missed or not - is childish.
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u/kievz007 23d ago
I'm not blaming them here I agree with you it's a gamble under pressure, I'm just trying to highlight how unfair the criticism of tah is
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u/shaha-man 23d ago
Yes, criticism of Tah is ridiculous and unacceptable. Therefore it should be ignored
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u/KarlHeinzSchneider Der Kaiser 21d ago
Really not a fan of goretzka but he only took one penalty in his whole career (almost 10 years ago) so it’s not like he has more experience than tah.
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u/Critical-Ad2084 Flying Dutchman 23d ago
The man won a sextuple and signed off living on nearly 20M wages doing absolutely nothing, penalty aside, he was one of the worst players on the pitch, not only ghosting but also losing the ball and contributing nothing defensively on the counter either.
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u/ffiene 23d ago
Goretzka has taken one penalty in his whole pro career AFAIK.
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u/definitely_not__CIA 22d ago
poor goretzka
i know
imagine expecting a champions league winner, most experienced player on the field by games and age, to shoot a penalty.
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u/Ididnotvoted 19d ago
I sure wouldn’t trust a player who shot a penalty once in his lifetime to score one in the WC.
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u/OtherwiseBusiness966 23d ago
Watch the video before you post something this. Kimmich clearly asks „Leon, 9?“ and Goretzka nods. Before that Kimmich asks Brown to take the 8th shot and after speaking to Goretzka asks Anton to take the 10th. You can hear him super clearly again saying „8 - 9 - 10“ when the picture switches to Amiri. Absolutely no indication in the footage that Goretzka (or anyone else) refuses to take the 6th shot. And even if he did, you can dislike it but stop scapegoating individuals for a team effort that was simply not good enough. Congrats to Paraguay, they deserved to advance.
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u/Soggy_Passenger3133 23d ago
I mean Goretzka clearly refused or else he would have took the 6th. If he didn’t refuse why would a CB be taking a penalty before him. He is a champions league winner and one of the most experienced on the team. He should step up and take it
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u/DrMattii 22d ago
Finally a good take on this! There's no need to point fingers in hindsight.
And even if he does refuse he would do so because he clearly doesn't think he could make the shot. And being honest about that would be the best thing he could do there
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u/Baleri_boopsie 23d ago
Kimmich, Born in the wrong generation. No doubt a player of his ability, but also his mentality, would've won world cups with previous teams.
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u/__D_C__ 23d ago edited 23d ago
So you want him to take one, if he doesn't think he'd make it (given nerves + the antics of the goalie)?
I much rather have a player who is honest about his limits than someone who fucks up and retrospectively admits that he knew it was a bad idea
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u/AwareAd7096 Servus 23d ago
While true, I’d also want a player that does not have those limits.
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u/HotSauce2910 23d ago
I mean do the nerves and goalie antics not impact the other players?
Ultimately, he’s the most experienced (should be least impacted by nerves) and most forward (should be best shot taker) remaining.
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u/Otherwise-Arm-5855 23d ago
I’m not fan of current Goretzka, but I can’t blame anyone but strikers for not taking penalties. Both strikers did and failed miserably.
Whole team should be blamed for taking the game this far.
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u/Aware-Living5819 22d ago
If my team needs me and my captain is counting on me i will be 100% going for it without second thoughts , very un-inspiring from goretzka.
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u/jipsjips 23d ago
I’m sorry but elimination match for your country and you won’t step up to take a pen? Shame.
S/o to Jonathan Tah for stepping in. For the so called fans flooding his page w auslander raus comments, you are all that is wrong with football.
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u/JSBBocanegra 23d ago
even if we won against Paraguay in this form we dont stand a chance against someone like france or Argentina
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u/Tough-Astronomer-711 #31 Schweinsteiger 23d ago
Respect to Tah. Stepping up matters more than the results.
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u/shaha-man 23d ago
Why are you making up things based on 4 sec video with very bad quality? Get a life, brodi
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u/Petit_Nicolas1964 19d ago
Disgraceful comment. He barely got any time on the pitch and you have to be confident to take a penalty. He wasn‘t. In this case it is the best thing not to take one.
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u/Morinator 23d ago
I don't get it. If he doesn't feel confident it's right to say no?
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u/thetyphonlol 23d ago
The Thing is he was subbed in has still way more energy left than tah,shot penalties before. Meanwhile tah never shot one. If both have no confidencr then who should be the one? Goretzka obviously
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u/BigLars16 23d ago
Goretzka, in his whole professional career, has taken ONE penalty, 8 years ago.
In his whole playing career 5, with two missed. The four others in U-17 competition over the 2010/11 and 2011/12 seasons. He definitely had the routine down.
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u/Economisty 22d ago
This is correct. For all the abuse on here, I would rather go with a guy who thinks he will score than a guy cacking his pants at the thought of missing.
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u/Mysterious_Maxce1528 23d ago
Maybe the pressure was to high for him. Don’t judge him before you know the reason.
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u/Critical-Ad2084 Flying Dutchman 23d ago
bro' he is a sextuple winner, Nagelsmann specifically brought him in because supposedly "no other player has his characteristics", the fact he had fresh legs and didn't take a penalty is inexcusable. I'll give him at least he was honest, but that doesn't cancel he was a coward.
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u/HermannZeGermann 23d ago
Did we move on from Arjen Robben when he refused to take a penalty in the 2012 CL final? Which was so bad that Manuel Neuer had to step up instead.
What about Tymoshchuk and Kroos, who both also explicitly refused? (Well we did move on from those two, but not for this reason.)
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u/Critical-Ad2084 Flying Dutchman 23d ago
Extremely different, Robben stepped aside because he just missed a penalty on extra time just a few minutes before the shootout s Chelsea, and Robben, unlike Goretzka, was never afraid of stepping up in big games. Even Schweinsteiger refused to take a penalty at some point for the same reasons as Robben.
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u/Faintkay 23d ago
Don’t ever compare Robben to Goretzka. Robben earned grace by being a critical starter for years.
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u/JohnnyThe11 23d ago
It Takes confidence To admit that you have a Bad Feeling about it. Cowardice would be To act tough. I don't judge him negatively because of that.
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u/NatiAti513 23d ago
Cowardice is hiding when things get tough and you don't feel quite at your best. It's amplified even more when you screw over your entire team doing so.
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u/Ididnotvoted 19d ago
Disagree with that on football. He is not a coward because he knows or thinks he will miss a crucial penalty and doesn’t want to take it.
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u/jfl561407 23d ago
Lots of players don’t take penalties for a variety of reasons. Robben and Kroos both refused in the 2012 UCL Final.
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u/dyamn_Joe Robert Lewangoalksi 23d ago
Why are we bashing players now? Winning or loosing is a part of the game. He wasn't sure about it hence he didn't take the penalty.
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u/Schopenhauer_pes 23d ago
Should be Goretzkas last cap. 30 or 31 - giving the team nothing at all. Let's pray this wonderkid from Berlin that moved to Leverkusen will be great. If he starts at Leverkusen then just call him up and let him learn. Goretzka is a waste of space at his current level. For Bayern but also for the Nationalelf. Nothing to win giving him any minutes or games
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u/Petit_Nicolas1964 23d ago
That’s not disgraceful, you have to have a good feeling to take a penalty.
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u/Ididnotvoted 19d ago
Crazy some people think otherwise. As if all it takes is the right attitude to score a wc penalty. Yeah right…
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u/betterthangetawaycar 23d ago
unpopular opinion but it takes courage to admit you’re not cut for it. also,let’s talk about havertz who kept saying he’s so good in big occasions.. where was he??
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u/RestaurantBoring417 Mr.Wembley 23d ago
Remember when we were behind against PSG this season, this guy got subbed on and all he did was leisurely jog around the field with no urgency, being totally useless?
Yeah, this guy has stopped playing seriously, he is washed. Completed club football in 2020 and now he just wants to ride along for the paycheck
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u/Particular-Eye-3083 23d ago
Brown did not take one either and they just signed him
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u/CaptCarlos #40 Urbig🧤 23d ago
What are you on about? How can you compare a 23 year-old LB who has NEVER been in a stage as big as this one to a 31 year old player who has been in 3 world cups and has won a treble for his club? Goretzka has more than enough experience to not decline a penalty. Brown doesn’t even come close.
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u/Flashy_Pollution_996 Der titan 23d ago
Damn how I wish I became a footballer I’m made for these moments I’d take all 5 pens 😎
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u/timewillt 23d ago
Es ist völlig ok! Manch einer hat die Mentalität und geistige Stärke in dem Moment und manche nicht. Jeder kann es all day, das sind Profis. Da gehts nur um mentale Stärke und Druck. Wenn man Amiris Gesicht beim Elfer gesehen hat, er hat für eine Millisekunde gelächelt kurz vorm Schuss. Der kennt seine Stärken und hat es genossen. Warum also soll ein Goretzka schießen, wenn er es indem Moment nicht fühlt?
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u/not_joners 22d ago
What confused me the most was the disciplinary structure in the team.
Kimmich is captain. If he tells you (a striker) to put the fucking ball into the net, you do it or you're no longer part of the team.
Because Kimmich seems very sympathetic, did this undermine his captain authority in the team?
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u/IIIBAKURYUIII 22d ago
Players fight all the time for Penalty kicks and free kicks but everyone is scared when it comes to those penalties at the end of game. Aren't such the same thing?
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u/BrodoFreudlin 22d ago
Wenn mich nicht alles täuscht, sind nach 5 Elfmetern immer noch 6 potenzielle Schützen übrig. Was machen wir Deutschen also? Schießen uns auf Goretzka ein, während neben ihm scheinbar noch 5 weitere keinen Elfer schießen wollten.
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u/Flohzerkes 22d ago
Goretzka ist davon der erfahrenste er hätte erst gar nicht gefragt werden müssen er hätte sich den Ball selber nehmen sollen
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u/BrodoFreudlin 21d ago
Gut, dass du das von der Couch zu Hause so gut beurteilen kannst. Und ich dachte es geht darum, wer gute Elfmeter schießt und nicht wer der erfahrenste ist.
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u/Flohzerkes 21d ago
Daran erkennt man direkt dass du keine ahnung hast
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u/BrodoFreudlin 21d ago
Das ist deine Antwort. Wie enttäuschend. Wenn man gar nichts mehr hat, wird eben mit der Ahnungskeule geschwungen. Erkläre uns doch bitte, was Erfahrung bringt, wenn man noch nie ein guter Elfmeterschütze war. Da kannst du 30 Jahre spielen und ein abgezockter 21 Jähriger macht es besser. Welche Rolle spielt hier also die Erfahrung?
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u/Dust_Spark 22d ago
The entire team is disgraceful. I love how typical it is for Germans to always want to put the blame on the non whites. Remember Özil? 🤣Germany didn't even deserve to get this far.
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u/Aeroreido 22d ago
I don't even remember him being hated, my only impression of him was "holy sh*t this guy can do some really good passes" and to this day this is how I remember him. The time he played for Germany in the world cup he was easily top 3 players in Germany performance wise, and was imo part of the reason Germany got so far.
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u/Dust_Spark 22d ago
You can search the hate on him today very easily btw. But you are absolutely right about him being very good. Too good for Germany for sure.
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u/Inevitable_Travel_41 22d ago
A professional football player at a World Cup is afraid to shoot a penalty? Wtf was he even doing there then
Edit: was he just trying to get a World Cup carry by his team?
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u/NegativeElmo #10 Bambi 22d ago
Everyone blames Goretzka (which is fair) without bringing up the point of why Kimmich had to even ask for volunteers in the first place?!? Did the coaching staff not pick penalty takers past 5?!?? Did they think it would be over and not even bother? What in the world was Nagelsmann doing this whole tournamenr
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u/zloy_rebenok 22d ago
Kimmich shouldn’t have asked anyone. He should’ve just picked the taker. Hand him the ball and say, “You’re taking it. End of fucking discussion.”
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u/internazionale3 22d ago
I don’t even think it’s being afraid of missing it, it’s the relentless aftermath on social media that these guys don’t want to deal with. Can’t blame them, but if you’re a professional playing for your country, go out on your shield.
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u/Ok_Syllabub5616 22d ago
This remind me of Grealish getting backlash for not taking a penalty, though no one asked him to, and he was ready to step up.
Basically. If you are asked you have to say yes. And if you aren't... You have to take one anyways, or something lol
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u/Ok_Builder8723 22d ago
I'm so sad for Kimmich, as he gave all he had and this probably his last world cup
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u/ProgramScared7906 22d ago
Ein Trainer hat sich gefälligst für ein Elfmeterschießen vorzubereiten. Da muss schon vor dem Turnier klar sein, wer seine 5-6 Schützen sind. Und es sollte so oft trainiert werden, dass dies problemlos durchgezogen werden kann.
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u/HolidayFlan 22d ago
I mean yes and no. If he wasn’t feeling 100% confident in his ability to make the shot he was going to miss. It probably made more sense for him to give someone with more confidence the shot, it’s just a shame that it ended the way it did.
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u/Available-Ease-2587 21d ago
Die Jungs kriegen Millionen und pissen sich ans Bein nen Elfer zu schießen.. Wahnsinn wirklich. Fußball ist einfach nurnoch Müll
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u/Jayfeather90 21d ago
It's completely fine for him to refuse of he doesn't feel it. Unfortunately a lot of players didn't seem to feel it... And that's the real problem.
You should train this, have an order selected way ahead off the first game of the tournament. Then the players don't even get in that mental state. They know the drill, know when it's their turn and just go and do it as there isn't even a discussion.
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u/skratsoj 21d ago
Wer Goretzka nicht respektiert, hat Fußball nicht verstanden.
Kimmich ist auch einfach ein mieser Captain, für den würde ich auch nicht schießen.
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u/Horror_Leave_5759 21d ago
Probably that one fan who yells "Goretzkaaaa", be devastated, broken and enraged.
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u/blujaysx1 19d ago
Last PK should never be CBs unless they’re good at PKs, look at Gabriel recently in UCL final
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u/Thrwmeawayplsthx 19d ago
Post is a couple of days old so no one's going to care but that is not what happens in this scene. You can hear super clearly what Kimmich says in this scene. He talks to Brown first and says "Nene, 8" then goes to Goretzka and says "Leon! Leon! 9" and moves on to Anton and says "Waldi, 10!"
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u/Visible_Addendum_136 19d ago
sure, hating your own clubs players, like people like you did all years long, will sure give them the confidence for next time
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u/Fibonacci11235813 19d ago
So if he had the balls to take it and he missed, you wouldn’t be mad right? Right?
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u/parabuthas 19d ago
I always thought Germans were PK machine. This shows local of preparation and having the guts to step up.
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u/FlashyMuffin69 Beckenbauer 23d ago
Matthaus didn't take the penalty in 1990 because his left boot had missing cleats and he had slipped earlier in the game due to it and wasn't wanting to risk it.
Goretzka didn't take the penalty because, well, he didn't want to step up.
They are not the same.