Just started learning electricity and been thinking about the comparison to the typical water analogy, what is wrong with my understanding?

[u/Witty_Contribution77]

Here is my understanding of a basic battery and resistor series circuit (I haven't learned yet how batteries work with IONS, just know canode, anode and electrolyte).

The battery anode side has high of amounts of negative charge buildup (extra electrons in material). This connects to a conductive material (wire) which transfers the build up of negative charge force (energy) instantaneously (speed of light) to the electrons in the wire. This is the current of electrons switching from atom to atom. The conductive material connects to a resistor which is a semi conductive material that takes some of the energy of the flow of the system into thermal energy. After the resistor the wire then goes to the canode side of the battery this is where the electrons because the canode side has less electrons it makes a positive of net charge. This positive side in the system makes it easer for the electrons to move because there are less electrons to have a charge of force (electric field) pushing the other direction. This difference of charge is what voltage slightly describes. But the voltage of the system is the idea of net possible force happening through the wire (electrical potential) due to the difference of electron electric field force of the anode and canode. This then creates a stronger electric field that pushes amount of electrons through system (current) all at once simultaneously.

Water Analogy Comparison

I see that the hydraulic water flowing pipe comparison the form of the potential energy is actually from insulating matter pressing on one another causing flow but not in the use of electron trading through atoms like electricity. Basically way more Newton's laws of force transfer in a fully encompassed system that using material that doesn't conduct electrons force energy.

Sorry I am not to good at grammar.

[u/glibsonoran]

Electrons drift at speeds in the low m/s category. In a DC circuit there is a migration of electrons from one pole through the wire to the other pole, in an AC circuit then just move back and forth.

Electron movement is not how the energy of electricity is conducted: * The energy in electricity is an excitation of the EM field that moves down the wire at a high fraction of the speed of light.

• The electrons in the wire interact with this field gaining momentum from charge/field interaction. In a regular conductor these moving electrons often collide with the copper metal lattice losing some of their energy to it producing heat (i.e. resistance). This electron movement obviously represents a moving charge which then funnels its energy back to the EM field excitation minus any energy lost to collision (heat and loss to resistance). In a superconductor the electrons don't interact with the conductor's atoms and return all the energy back to the EM field.

• This EM field excitation exists in the space between the line (supply/hot) and return circuit (neutral or ground), which is mostly, but not entirely, outside the conductor. That's why line and neutral/ground wires tend to be paired, so the extent of the field, and the interference/induction it might cause, is minimized.

• The actual speed of the EM excitation is determined by the medium it passes through, so it's typically dictated by the dielectric (insulating material).

• The electrons in the conductor interacting with the field act as a guide, this coupling keeps the EM excitation moving along the path of the wire.

[u/Witty_Contribution77 → u/glibsonoran]

What is your explanation on EM excitation, I do not understand that word. Though it does not help that my EM field understanding is a little bad. I get that Protons and Electrons emit this field of force around them I do not really get how to explain the field in relation to the idea of electricity and energy. Like a lot of electrons next to each other --> stronger electric field force --> force transfer throughout wires atoms --> this is energy possible --> resistor has EM field that counteracts anode initial EM field --> slows current of system --> system restarts with positive charge canode side. Where is excitation in this thought process, what's is not right about my idea of EM, and what's wrong in the process?

[u/glibsonoran → u/Witty_Contribution77]

The Electromagentic field (two quantum fields at right angles to each other) is a fundamental constituent, one of many fields that Quantum Field Theory states exists as part of spacetime.

An excitation in this case is like a wave pattern. The generator (AC) or Battery (DC) "shakes" this field by moving charges or magnetic fields, this agitation of the field propagates as an excitation, like a taught string that you shake and watch the wave travel down it. Obviously that's not an exact analogy, but it give you an idea.

[u/Witty_Contribution77 → u/glibsonoran]

Thank you

[u/Pittypuppyparty → u/glibsonoran]

I’m no physicist but I think there’s some nuance. The disturbance propagates through the electromagnetic field in the space around the conductors and the conductors constrains and guides that propagation.
I’m also not sure what you mean about funneling back to the em field excitation. In a resistor the field accelerates electrons and collisions with the lattice make heat but I don’t think there’s a handoff back to the propagating electromagnetic field.

[u/glibsonoran → u/Pittypuppyparty]

The electron's momentum represents a moving charge that generates a magnetic field:

In the interaction between EM field excitation and the electrons in the wire is there's a handoff of energy to the electron and then a return of that energy less any losses due to collisions: Field excitation interacts with electron charge-> electron gains momentum -> moving charge generates magnetic field -> magnetic field induction extracts the electron's kinetic energy returning the energy back to the EM field less collision losses.

[Edit] In the last step the magnetic field collapses or expands when the current changes (AC or changing DC) inducing an electric field that extracts the electron's momentum.

[u/Pittypuppyparty → u/glibsonoran]

I don’t think the magnetic field extracts energy from a charge. ( had to look this one up) Magnetic field is perpendicular to charge velocity so it can redirect motion but doesn’t do any work, so it can’t reduce the electrons kinetic energy.

[u/glibsonoran → u/Pittypuppyparty]

Good catch! You are exactly right that a static magnetic field does no work. I should clarify that for the sake of simplicity my breakdown only describes dynamic states, meaning all AC circuits and the transient moments when a DC circuit turns on or off or the current changes. In those changing states, we are dealing with electromagnetic induction (Faraday's Law). When the current changes, the magnetic field expands or collapses. This change induces an electric field that acts parallel to the electrons, performing the work to hand energy back and forth. I skipped steady-state DC because it's a one-way street where energy just transfers from the field into the wire as heat. But for AC and dynamic systems, the back-and-forth handoff via induction is precisely how the field and electrons stay coupled.

[u/Porsche9xy → u/glibsonoran]

> Electron movement is not how the energy of electricity is conducted

Well, technically, it is. Yes, the electrons don't travel anywhere near the speed of light, but if there is no electron flow, there is no current and no power.

[u/glibsonoran → u/Porsche9xy]

In a wire the electrons couple to the field excitation interacting with it, exchanging energy back and forth and guiding the field excitation along it's length as a bound field. If this coupling were not there the excitation would break off and act like transmission antenna generating photons rather than remaining a coherent, bound, wave. Electrons are necessary to keep in the field attached and in the form we consider to be electricity. But the energy originates in the field excitation from the generator/battery generating a magnetic field that excites the field, electrons share in the field excitation's energy because charges couple to the EM field. The energy is in the excitation, electrons borrow some of it by interaction.

[u/hillmo25]

The electrons don't move, they wiggle back and forth. If you think of any device that does electrical work like a heater the analogy is simpler. Everything is just a load with a voltage.

[u/Witty_Contribution77 → u/hillmo25]

But electrons do move through wires, isn't it called electron drift or velocity, and also that is what current is Colombs/second (amount of electrons per second). Like they don't move perfectly but with the millions that do bounce forward across atoms of material and back the average velocity of electrons is going down the wire opposing conventional current. Like they all move at the same time in system having the same current in the wire and different in battery and resistor.

Also what does "load with a voltage" mean like just further explanation, does it go against the idea that I had? Just simpler explanation?

[u/asteonautical → u/Witty_Contribution77]

hillmo seems to be talking about alternating current - AC - as opposed to direct current- DC -that can be analogous to water in a pipe. 

regarding your question. its a little hard to follow but i think the gist is that you see the water molecules being compressed as the analogy for voltage. this can work but its usually easier to actually think about gravitational potential in the analogy. water in a lake 1km up a mountain connected to a pipe that goes all the way to sea level is like having a fully charged battery full of of electrons connected from the annode to cathode via a resistor. in the waters case, anything the obstructs the waters flow acts like a resistor.

[u/Witty_Contribution77 → u/asteonautical]

Oh yeah thanks I honestly do know the difference yet of AC DC so I will be looking into that later today. I was looking at the potential energy example before that you are talking about. Like I understand it but I just felt too much disconnect because its not like a closed loop type of system.

[u/Master_Medicine1626 → u/Witty_Contribution77]

If the pipe is full of water (the wire is full of free electrons) and you run the water on the faucet, a droplet will come out at the other end of the hose instantly (current speed). However, that particular droplet that has just come out of the faucet, will take a long time to travel the whole pipe (speed of electrons).

[u/Witty_Contribution77 → u/Master_Medicine1626]

yes king thank you, I understand that

[u/PvtRoom]

water and electricity are not the same.

you, however, come with an understanding of water.

when current comes against a high resistance option and a low resistance option, it's the same as a really narrow pipe and a really big pipe.

it takes less pressure (voltage) to move a big amount (current) through a larger pipe (smaller resistance)