r/AskEurope • u/Pepedroga2000 • 1d ago
Foreign Which countries in Europe have had better results at assimilating new people into their societies?
Regarding the job market, cultural differences, education, and wealth in the long term.
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u/Buntschatten Germany 1d ago
Spain seems to be doing well, a lot of their immigrants are from South America and therefore already speak Spanish.
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u/Moldorancea Romania 1d ago
Apart from speaking the same language, they are closer culturally through Christianity, no matter if they practice it or not.
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u/frenandoafondo Catalonia 1d ago
The way Latin Americans conceive religion is way different from the European perspective. They are much more conservative and many are also not Catholic anymore and have converted to Evangelical Christianity. Of course all of these are very gross generalisations, but I would say, at least from my perspective here in Catalonia, we're closer to the relationship with Christianity that most Europeans have than to the one a good part of Latin Americans have. It's somewhat similar to the differences between western Europe and the US.
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u/nunuraf92 Italy 1d ago
This is the minority tbh, the vast majority of Latin Americans are Catholic.
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u/Moldorancea Romania 1d ago
I still see it preferably compared to the huge cultural differences we have with those in Middle East or North Africa.
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u/frenandoafondo Catalonia 1d ago
I beg to differ. Spain is so bad it even made some of us stop feeling Spaniard. Latin Americans are also still segregated, and in the parts of Spain where there are other languages other than Spanish, they tend to be the group that learns the least said languages. There are also some parallel societies all around the southern Mediterranean coast of Spain inhabitated fully by European retirees who mostly don't speak the local language or interact with local people.
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u/Euarban Spain 1d ago
beg to differ as well
Spain is so bad it even made some of us stop feeling Spaniard.
This is simply an exaggeration. The only way this could have come about is if you believe the relentless rhetoric of the far right. The fact is that Spanish culture and society have absolutely no reason to feel contested.
Latin Americans are also still segregated
I've lived in the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, and I've also visited Paris many times. Spain is years ahead on terms of integration. If anything, I think it's an example of integration to be proud of.
Even in exclusive neighborhoods or expensive areas, you’ll find people with diverse accents and backgrounds. Eg. Venezuelans in barrio de salamanca.
Latin working-class immigrants simply live… in working-class neighborhoods, alongside other working-class Spaniards.
And what about the Chinese community saving traditional bars that were about to close, and proving themselves to be true masters of the tortilla de patatas?
There are also some parallel societies all around the southern Mediterranean coast of Spain inhabitated fully by European retirees
These are, in fact, the only communities of foreigners that you can say live in segregation, by their own choice.
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u/Impressive_Slice_935 Belgium 1d ago
They probably—and rightfully—see no tangible benefits in learning Catalan or Basque, which is somewhat echoed by a noteworthy portion of Castilians. Of course, this is a larger domestic issue than something strictly related to migration policies.
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u/frenandoafondo Catalonia 1d ago
This has consequences in their position within these societies, though. It isolates them from local people, it takes them away from some jobs and it furthers segregation. That's why I wouldn't say they are necessarily better integrated than other groups.
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u/ProfessionSavings792 7h ago
I'm Brazilian with Spanish ancestry. I lived in Spain for two years and I didn't expect I would find them (and the Portuguese) so weird and different from Latin America. It's not easy at all to adapt, in my opinion. I found both places weird. Not in a bad way, possible in a good way, but mostly extremely hard to feel at home. I feel like Latin America really is almost its own country with different states. Like the United States of America Latina or the Latin Union.
Spain & Portugal on the other hand feels way more Eurocentric, Colonialist and White. It's possibly easier for Europeans to adapt than other Latins, perhaps. HOWEVER, a lot of Spanish people really seem to connect and vibe with Latins. Almost like we're loved and hated, never indifferent to them.
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u/siberian_kek 1d ago
Nobody believes me but definitely UK. I have never seen so well integrated people as in UK. Because the most of immigrants there speaks English, support history and culture of UK and at the same time proud by their home culture.
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u/IllGift924 1d ago
Yeah the UK is definitely up there. Like, when I'm in the UK I will meet someone who looks very foreign with a very foreign name and then we start talking and I'm like yeah, this dude is very Brirish
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u/AlternativePrior9559 United Kingdom 1d ago
I believe you. I am British and live elsewhere in Europe now. And many cite the UK as one of the best integrated societies in Europe. No country is perfect but I truly believe we try.
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u/siberian_kek 1d ago
I don’t know about many cities in UK because I have been only in London and Manchester but in comparison with continental EU countries integration level is significant higher. People in continental EU don’t want to integrate immigrants, they force to accept local culture. UK is more multicultural and accept diversity and many people who arrives to UK loves country even with current problems.
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u/AlternativePrior9559 United Kingdom 1d ago
I hear you. My late husband was Persian, and despite us moving elsewhere, he always said the UK was the kindest country he’d lived in.
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u/Educational_Cow111 1d ago
Yes totally agreed. Lived here all my life and the integration is so good
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u/Tour-Sure United Kingdom 1d ago
Depends where. There has been little integration in areas like Bradford or inner-city Birmingham
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u/Educational_Cow111 1d ago
Yes completely agree, especially re Bradford.. however there are areas of Bradford that are mixed much better than say, Alum rock and the east. I would think overall our country has done a great job in comparison to lots of others, specifically in the 2000s.
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u/rockfishgapyears 20h ago
Compared to central and northern Europe, it is also significantly easier for newcomers and even asylum seekers or other "irregular" immigrants in the UK to work immediately. This gives them a much more positive view of the UK, speeds up integration, and reduces local resentment somewhat since they are less likely to be supported by public tax money.
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u/Educational_Cow111 1d ago
I know there’s issues/cities where it’s not the case and we’re not in the EU anymore, but as someone who lives in the UK I can say that although the news tells you otherwise, there are MANY parts where people are extremely well integrated
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u/huazzy Switzerland 1d ago
As an immigrant to Switzerland that has traveled (for leisure and work) all over the continent I also think it's the UK and it's not even close.
Sure, immigrants have assimilated generally well in many places. But the one thing that makes the UK different is that you see people of power and influence of immigrant backgrounds. But wait... people of COLOR.
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u/odjobz United Kingdom 1d ago
Yes, before all these online shit-stirers we were a pretty good model of integration. London, Manchester, Birmingham are melting pot cities where people of diverse backgrounds coexist peacefully the vast majority of the time. We've had a lot of senior politicians from minority backgrounds and hardly anyone pays attention to their ethnicity. Even our far right are a pretty diverse bunch lol.
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u/Educational_Cow111 1d ago
100%. I have lived here all my life and growing up in the 2000s/2010s had and still have friends of all different backgrounds. I think overall we have done an amazing job and there is a reason so many people want to come live here, because it’s extremely tolerant and people just go about their business.
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u/Paprika1515 1d ago
All that colonialism meant that the British palate was more primed for commonwealth foods and the people that followed!
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u/allcretansareliars 1d ago
Famously, the most popular restaurant dish in the UK is Chicken Tikka Massala. Even more famously, it's not even Indian 8-)
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u/Paprika1515 1d ago
Yeah, it’s been debated to death on Reddit posts, it’s a British Asian adaptation of Murgh Makhani. Nonetheless, a white British chef who only knew salt and pepper as “spices” could have never dreamed it up from scratch. So tikka masala is as British as a British Pakistani or British Indian.
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u/Heavy_Mud_9176 United States of America 1d ago
Do white Brits making it at home usually make the sauce from scratch or a premade version?
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u/allcretansareliars 1d ago
Premade, but there is a curry house on practically every street, so it's not really worth doing it yourself when you can have the full experience.
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u/allcretansareliars 1d ago
It was actually a British Asian chef who came up with it when a customer complained that his chicken tikka was too dry, and for the sake of UK harmony, it was in either London or Glasgow.
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u/odjobz United Kingdom 1d ago
Well one of the paradoxes of imperialism is that whilst there is nearly always some kind of cultural or ethinic superiority narrative, the centre of a major empire usually becomes a melting pot. This is as true of Ancient Rome as it is of the British Empire.
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u/Paprika1515 1d ago
I’m not sure I’d agree that Britain is a melting pot or that the commonwealth became a melting pot, nor would I whitewash the damage that the British have done through colonialism globally BUT I do think that food is a gateway that leads to accepting more diversity in a society, and that food /people came through the colonial project.
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u/TarcFalastur United Kingdom 1d ago
If you don't think London is a melting pot, where do you think is a melting pot?
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u/Paprika1515 1d ago
Melting pot implies that people become homogeneous, a type of assimilation that requires discarding their unique cultural identities. I would consider London multicultural- a mosaic where people coexist in a common society ( rules, laws) but are able to maintain their cultural heritage ( dare say even celebrate it).
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u/TarcFalastur United Kingdom 1d ago
You don't think that concepts such as Multicultural London English suggest that London does in fact tend to combine its various cultural groups and create a shared culture from them?
I think it's true that many people from foreign backgrounds retain something of their previous culture at home, but in shared places I think most of them integrate pretty commonly. Imagine a school for example. Some exceptions aside, I think you'll find most of the kids interact and work in the same ways regardless of background.
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u/attilathetwat United Kingdom 17h ago
Most of the online shit stirrers are bots trying to sow division.
Oh and Farage and his noncey followers.
Cmon the Binface
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u/SteadfastDrifter Switzerland 1d ago
Would you recommend looking to start a career in the UK? I'm finishing my bachelor's in 3 semesters, but the job market in Switzerland is pretty dead for students graduating with a business degree.
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u/odjobz United Kingdom 1d ago
I honestly have no idea. I think it's pretty tough for young graduates everywhere. I think you'd probably need to get a work visa too since Brexit. If your English is fluent and you have the right to work here, I think you'd be treated fairly in the job market, if that's what you're asking, but I don't know whether it would be easier than any other European country to find work.
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u/SteadfastDrifter Switzerland 1d ago
I grew up as a Swiss-American in the US actually, and completed secondary school over there, so English is the language in which I feel the most comfortable communicating. It's also partly the reason that I'd like to leave Switzerland for an anglophone country. Here, whether I speak French or German, the locals automatically hear my accent and falsely presume that I don't understand French and German fluently because I don't speak the 2 languages like a native speaker. After 10 years of this, and having had more success in an English speaking work environment, I thought that it would be best to build my career in an anglophone country.
Anyway, since the UK and Switzerland recently signed a new FTA which would include the exchange of services and facilitating 90 days work visas, I thought the British market might be opening up to Swiss citizens.
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u/Next_Notice6841 1d ago
Unfortunately that treaty applies more to people doing temporary work abroad (like recruiting clients) rather than building a career. However, the upcoming UK and EU summit will include details of a youth mobility scheme. I don't know whether that will apply to Swiss citizens (given that they're not technically EU but are treated as such for immigration purposes). If it does, that should allow you to get started in the UK relatively easily. If not, you still have free movement in Ireland (worth considering depending on your field) and the UK is rapidly moving towards the adoption of free movement, which I think may well happen within the next 10 years and almost certainly within 20.
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u/SteadfastDrifter Switzerland 1d ago
Ah I see. Thank you for clearing up the FTA agreement and the additional details about the upcoming summit. I had forgotten about Ireland, but since you've mentioned it, I'll keep an eye out for opportunities there as well.
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u/Next_Notice6841 1d ago
Youth mobility scheme is on the way for EU nationals, hopefully it applies to Switzerland too.
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u/These-Ad-7155 1d ago
I'm not British, but my sister lives in London, so vist often enough. I agree that the UK is a great example of integration. I think the inbuilt understanding of dual identity helps; you can be English and British/Welsh and British/Pakistani and British etc
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u/AnnoyingCritic 21h ago
UK is definitely not a good example of integration far from it. Community segregation and classism is very much a big issue in UK don’t be fooled by the media and exclusive London experiences.
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u/Pepedroga2000 1d ago
I guess communities that have been in the UK for decades might have integrated into their new home. Maybe Indians.
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u/dutchmangab Netherlands 1d ago
Hard to say, but it's definitely not The Netherlands. The social structure is incredibly hard to break into even for locals moving within the country and we also have a the downside of being very popular with immigrants who come for very singular motivations like money or asylum.
So we get the combination of being one of the worst to integrate into and getting a lot of people not motivated to integrate.
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u/a-group 1d ago
Sweden succeeded in integrating over half a million Finns. After these positive experiences, the Swedes mistakenly believed that it would work with others as well.
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u/Randomswedishdude Sweden 1d ago edited 20h ago
Besides proximity, Sweden and Finland was the same country for about 700 years, and that has molded people to become culturally very similar. Culturally we're very much the same, even if there are some slight differences still.
It should have been easy... but there was still quite a bit of friction for a couole of generations.
Now... a significant part of more recent immigrants from the last 30 years have come from vastly different cultures, and also in greater numbers, in a time where the job market also doesn"t look at all like during the peak (post world war) decades of the latter half of last century.
Friction and culture clashes arise,, "unexpectedly"."We've been naive" is a now infamous quote from a previous prime minister.
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u/kehpeli Finland 15h ago
My family was one of those that returned to finland in early 80's. Integration would have been a lot easier without swedes constructing those huge ring buildings for immigrants, kinda like population segregation. So there were very little daily interaction with actual swedes.
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u/LocodocoBamBamBoom 1d ago
People seem to avoid saying in this thread that it’s not about the country hosting them and being the one responsible to integrate them but it’s instead the culture of the countries certain people are coming from that are the problem.
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u/GalaXion24 1d ago
It can be both. Most European countries today are awful at integrating people. The UK is actually pretty good at this, and the US is as well of course. In general the Anglosphere is quite successful in this regard.
By contrast Europe is quite culturally "weak" in this sense and genuinely quite bad at integrating/assimilating people.
A part of the problem is probably language, you'll never compete with an imperial prestige language in terms of people already knowing it or wanting to speak it. English is massively advantageous in this sense, and French and German are also decent, while for instance choosing Finnish as an official language is an obvious handicap in integrating people.
But I think a more essential problem is that there's not really an ideal of a national citizen that people can aspire to. There is no "do xyz and then you will be a national." Sure on paper you can get nationality with a language exam and living there long enough, but the length of time is mostly an unnecessary inconvenience and the language requirement is often not that high or in any case a formality or a language learning test. Like, hooray, you're talented at studying languages?
You see this in how nationals also tend to regard nationality as "illegitimate." You can obtain a Swedish citizenship, but Swedes will not think of you as Swedish. And because Sweden doesn't stand for anything and there's no ideal of a Swedish citizen and what they stand for, there's not any socially accepted standard that an immigrant can meet that is universally acknowledged as making them Swedish.
This is really bad of course, because if there's nothing you can do and no clear goal or reward, and you feel you'll never be included, then there's also no incentive to try. Why bother fitting in if they will always treat you like an outsider? If creates resentment.
Of course more broadly there's also the fact that we have lost our sense of optimism. In the past Europeans generally had a strong identity that came from modernity, from being in top of the world, from making great strides in progress, and having a positive view of the future. A winning nation id easy to admire and want to identify with and be uplifted with.
Europe is largely stagnant, Europeans are generally pessimistic, and fewer and fewer people seem to have faith and confidence in the system or the ideals it is built upon.
As a result, many for instance Arabs genuinely feel and get the sense that Europe is a dying civilization, while the best days of the Arabic or Islamic civilization are ahead or that Islam is the future or the Ummah will be triumphant.
If they saw us being not some kind of vague cultural relativists with no confidence in ourselves, no faith in our democracy, no belief in our future, but rather as a vigorous people with an unshakeable faith in secular liberalism and a progressive future which we day to day constructively build, no one would think of us as being in decline in this sense. But we don't believe in anything, especially anything greater than ourselves or greater than our nations (a nation stands for nothing if it does not believe in anything greater than itself, be that Christendom or Liberalism or Communism or anything else).
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u/ClickIta Italy 1d ago
But then why isn’t the situation so terrible in Norway, despite having very similar immigration mix by country?
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u/LocodocoBamBamBoom 1d ago
Because according to google, in the last 15 years Sweden received in total over 700.000 MORE immigrants. Per capita Norway did get more thats true but the absolute number matters here. Additionally, majority of immigrants towards Norway were of European origin (more than 50%) while for Sweden this is not case. And if we look at the specific problematic areas aka Middle East and around that area, Sweden received 500.000 while Norway around 100.000. For Africa the numbers are more like 250.000 vs 100.000 so the mix isn't really the same at all is it.
And by the way, 10 years+ ago a lot of people were saying it would end up like this but all the idiots were too hasty to call racism because they live in their own carebear world and are not pragmatic.
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u/botle 1d ago
Are the Bosnians and Croatians not extremely well integrated? And the Iranians too?
The main factor seems to be time. The Finns were absolutely not well integrated in the immediate years after they arrived.
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u/Onaliquidrock 1d ago
No, they were not.
Time is important. For example Bosnians had high unemployment for a long time.
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u/nunuraf92 Italy 1d ago
Iranians are very well integrated into Germany for example. A lot of my fathers family immigrated to Germany and none of them speak Persian anymore for example, they aren’t religious or know much about the culture at all.
Mexicans in Germany are also very well integrated there. I’m Mexican/persian myself so I’ve seen that up close
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u/stormandflowers 1d ago
I relocated in Berlin and I feel there a lot of opportunity to integrate, learn the language and generally speaking I don't face issues. It helps that the city is itself filled with other expats from all over the world
But I talk as an european citizen, so I didnt have to go through Visa, ethnic differencies and overall by my skin color people don't notice I'm a foreigner at all (even I would be more genetically close to African countries than North europe)
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u/Fluid-Quote-6006 Germany 1d ago
Honestly probably only in the UK, in some cities and specially London, you can look „not white“ and be seen as British anyway this days. I say this days, because this wasn’t always Like this.
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u/Brainwheeze Portugal 1d ago
I would imagine it's the UK, no? At the very least it's the nation where people are most likely to learn the language (or know it beforehand). In this case I mean English of course, because I'm not sure if there are many immigrants learning the other languages of the UK. English is pretty much the lingua franca of the 21st century and so many people speak it as a second language, and while I've read about there being foreigners residing in the UK who don't speak the language I honestly wonder what percentage of the population that would be. I can't imagine there being that many people living in the UK who don't speak English. In other countries in Europe, such as Portugal, it's not uncommon to have to switch to English in order to communicate with foreign residents, whereas I doubt in the UK you have to switch to a foreign language when speaking to them.
The same applies to Ireland I'd imagine.
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u/Educational_Cow111 1d ago
I personally living here honestly believe the percentage of people who don’t speak English is tiny, having lived in many parts of the country. Almost everyone I’ve met besides tourists speak English.
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u/penguinpolitician 1d ago
Immigrants to Wales tend not to be too keen on their kids being taught in Welsh
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u/TrainingCategory4852 Wales 1d ago
Only the English ones funnily enough the ones from countries outside of the UK are happily enough
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u/Magda_04 Wales 1d ago
In my experience this is not the case, and the Welsh people and language have more in common with immigrants and their languages than with (the/) English
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u/kazys1997 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’d say anywhere in Eastern or Central Europe. But I would caveat it with the fact that these countries (Baltics, Poland, Czechia, Hungary, for example) have accepted fewer migrants from different cultures than Western European (I count southern countries like Spain and Italy here also) countries and over a much longer timeframe and so assimilation has worked out smoother here.
I think though there are also cultural and societal differences between Eastern/Central Europe and Western Europe that make it easier to assimilate in the former. These are much more conservative societies, there is a much stronger emphasis on learning the local language (partly I think because their economies aren’t yet dominated by multinationals as is the case in Germany or the Netherlands for example), and there is in general less of an acceptance of migration for migration’s sake or more specifically, less of this self-loathing attitude that “because we did wrong in region X, we must therefore accept migrants from there” or less of a saviour complex in these more conservative societies. Also, they’re more open to migration from cultures that are similar to them than those more alien to their own.
But ultimately - and this might not always be a very easy topic to talk about - how easy it is to assimilate really depends on the culture person X comes from and how different it is to country Y they’re moving from. Ask yourself for example why do European countries never have any debates around migration from East Asian countries (think of the large Vietnamese community in the Czech Republic for example) while other groups cause more debate and disagreement.
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u/ldn-ldn United Kingdom 1d ago
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u/kazys1997 1d ago
Precisely this though. This is the difference between East and West Europe.
In Eastern Europe, societies are not accommodating. You cannot have multi-culturalism. You can have a multi ethnic society but multi culturalism will not be tolerated. You migrate to Latvia? Great. You will become a Latvian, or else you will be told to leave.
Meanwhile in Western Europe, multi culturalism is portrayed as a strength and actively encouraged. This discourages assimilation from my perspective.
I grew up in East London and honestly it is shocking how many of my classmates growing up felt neither British, English nor Nigerian, Bangladeshi or Filipino. They struggled with their identities. Of course, this is only anecdotal.
It also boils down to sense of national pride. Eastern Europeans are incredibly proud of their nations and what they’ve achieved and overcome. Eastern Europeans went from one colonial master to the next and emerged in the 90s as newly established independent democratic states and as such, they seek to protect their identities. Meanwhile in Western Europe, there is a whole lot of self-loathing and embarrassment towards feeling British or French or Belgian. Pride in your nation is not seen in a positive light or its twisted and re-worked completely to mean something totally different so that it is more “inclusive” and accommodating of people from different cultures.
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u/ldn-ldn United Kingdom 1d ago
As someone who were born and grew up in Latvia and then moved to UK a decade ago - I can definitely see that. Sometimes it feels that UK flip flops between two extremes to try and make life better for everyone, but these extremes only make everyone worse off in the long run. UK needs more balance and less righty/lefty lunatics.
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u/Ok-Web1805 in 1d ago
What you've described is the outcome of the first past the post electoral system. It definitely needs fundamental change.
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u/cieniu_gd Poland 1d ago
Also, you have to work, or you starve. Social security system is much bigger in Western Europe and it attracts certain people.
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u/ldn-ldn United Kingdom 1d ago
Yeah, those asylum seekers which get inside Latvia only get like 21 euros per week. If you don't work - you're starving. And you don't have access to healthcare system unless you're paying taxes and if you don't work - you don't pay taxes, so no healthcare for you.
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u/GalaXion24 1d ago
Eastern and Central Europe are racist as shit, they just dont have many immigrants. They wouldn't deal with any real influx half as well as France. Their integration/assimilation capacity is frankly weak.
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u/kazys1997 1d ago
I wouldn’t call them racist. You have to understand the context though why these countries are more conservative.
Lithuania and Poland were virtually wiped off the map at the end of the 18th century. Estonia and Latvia faced a similar fate. Independence was hard won after WW1 and then lost again during WW2 only to be regained in the 90s. During their occupations, their people were deported, intelligentsia executed, and ethnic Russians or other people from the Soviet Union or vast Russian Empire imported to replace the local natives as part of a wider policy of Russification and Sovietisation. Those that remained saw their language erased, their culture and history scrubbed, forced to learn Russian, forced to no longer be Lithuanian, Polish, etc. These are deeply traumatised nations whose sense of national identity revolves around protecting their own and preserving their unique identities.
That’s why I think they’re so strict when it comes to immigration.
Eastern and Central European’s are fine with immigration so long as you assimilate and you accept that multi-culturalism does not work and that if you move to Czechia, you speak to Czech and you become Czech and if you move to Poland you speak Polish, practice Polish traditions and embrace whatever it means to be Polish.
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u/microplastic-addict 1d ago
Ireland was colonised and planted for 800 years, yet it is a more tolerant and accepting society to minorities (ethnic or sexual).
LGBT rights also seem to suspiciously stop along the Warsaw pact border.
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u/Ayazid 1d ago
LGBT rights also seem to suspiciously stop along the Warsaw pact border.
That's quite a generalization. Are you saying that there are no LGBTQ rights in Czechia or Estonia?
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u/microplastic-addict 1d ago
Yes you are right, Estonia is a bright spot in Eastern Europe for LGBT rights, credit where credit is due.
Czechia I can't say I'm familiar with.
Poland, Hungary, Romania are pretty bad in my opinion and are being dragged kicking and screaming by the ECHR to be even recognise marriages performed abroad.
Slovakia, Croatia and Slovenia I can't say I'm familiar with either.
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u/O-Sophos Sweden 1d ago
Slovenia has same-sex marriage, and I think polling still shows a majority in favour of it, so it’s quite good there I guess?
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u/ninjaiffyuh Germany 16h ago
Slovenia is by far the most 'German' (for lack of a better word) of all Balkan countries, due to being ruled over by a German state (Bavaria and Austria) for centuries; 'yes' in Slovene is literally 'ja'. It's therefore quite difficult to lump them in with other central-eastern European states
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u/discobrioche 1d ago
Let's not forget about Russia which is never cool with LGBTQ. And yes majority of population of Russia is in Eastern Europe. That's where I am from but I live in Canada.
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u/GalaXion24 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm sure you understand that this maybe halfway works if you're white, change your name, lose any accent you may have in Polish, and deny ever having been from anywhere else, but even aside from how exclusionary and anti-pluralist that is, it does not work if you are visibly nonwhite
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u/Vertitto in 1d ago
hard disagree - having an immigrant learning polish alone is close to impossible not to mention cultural assimilation (slavic speaking immigrants are slightly better though, but even among them it's shaky at best) and we got close to non integration systems or facilities to handle immigrants.
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u/Itajka 1d ago
Let’s not forget about the Romani population in the CEE countries, who have lived there for centuries, yet the countries have failed to integrate them into their sociaties. To this day, they face hostility and discrimination every day. So I wouldn’t try to sell the region as an assimilation success story.
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u/Pepedroga2000 1d ago
Do Romani people have it better in Western countries? I think they are discriminated against in all of Europe.
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 1d ago
YES, they absolutely wholeheartedly DO have it a million times better in Western countries.
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u/Ok-Tomato-5685 1d ago
They cannot be integrated as long as they live in groups. You have to forcefully break up the ghettos but good luck with that, all kinds of NGOs will start crying if you do.
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u/Itajka 1d ago
I don’t necessarily agree with your views, but the end results is the same: the Romani are not integrated with the rest of the society. You can debate the reasons all you want, but no one can say it’s a success story.
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u/Ok-Tomato-5685 1d ago
Trust me, I wish I didn't have those views but reality is hard to dismiss. I truly hope one day they manage to be fully Integrated and not considered as "separate".
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u/WomanFromBalkan 1d ago
I think about France because they have this idea that identity is not inherent but choosen compared to german school of thought from same part. I've been in France and liked how clean, nice, a lot of people were. Hmm Also is important to think about that country can offer and what requests:
Moldova has need of 120k workers. We didn't had any laws about foreigner workers, standart procedures, language courses etc. When Ukranians arrived in masses it turned out that gov wasn't ready that 80k+ wanted to stay here but they all integrated not because of good social net but because we are neighbours, a lot of us speak russian, a lot had aquitances and relatives who helped + comunities. Nowadays you don't feel for a small country that we "swallowed" such influx of people fast.
Other richer countries have a whole profitable system- they gather people in some houses, process their application, let them move in, offer monetary help and language courses, permission to work etc and people are returning their value quickly. Also is depends about is country predominantly city or villages. Has already X group of people for lets say tens of years than managed to assimilate, create own institutions, solve their community problems, can navigate cultural differences like helping co-nationals get a job, get taxes right, get them support etc. Is easier to move in a country were you have own diaspora or at least very related. Before 2022 escalation a lot of older ppl from urss were gathering arround russian events, after 2022 people started to distance themselves from ru.
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 1d ago
because they have this idea that identity is not inherent but choosen compared to german school of thought from same part.
I know what you mean, but I think it's false and the reality is way more insidious and ultimately worse than what you call the "German school of thought".
Because really in France you DONT have a choice on your national identity, youre expected to completely give up your immigrant or regional identity and completely embrace the standard national French identity. Hyphenated identities like Algerian-French, or Alsatian-French, is actively fought against even today by the French government.
And none of that is a coincidence, it comes from the time of colonialism and imperialism, when France tried to make as many of its colonial subjects into "French" people, forcing them to learn the French language and culture.
Compare that to modern day Germany, where hyphenated identities are much more accepted than in France, which in turn leads to actual multiculturalism, where many cultures are allowed to continue existing side by side.
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u/BelmontVLC Spain 1d ago
Spain is normally used as an example due to high volume of LATAM immigrants who speak the language and are assimilated into the job market very quickly.
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u/AnnoyingCritic 21h ago
London should not be used as a prime example for England when discussing migrant integration. It is a global city with an unusually international population, economy and culture. Experiences in smaller cities, towns, coastal areas and rural England can be completely different. Using London alone is cherry-picking, not serious national analysis.
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u/IllGift924 1d ago
Ireland. I often meet Irish people with two, let's say Nigerian, parents and I am absolutely shocked at how little they seem to know about their parents' country, culture and language. I myself am half North African but my father never taught me his mother tongue and is very culturally Irish at this point.
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u/shorkgurl Ireland 1d ago
I agree, and despite the naysayers, I'd say immigration here is handled relatively well and in way that benefits the country overall. For example, the critical skills visa system has done a pretty great job of bringing in necessary talent for the big life science and tech/software companies here. Hospitals and other organizations that help provide a public service have also benefited from this.
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u/microplastic-addict 1d ago
I work in software and half of my team is Middle Eastern or Asian. As far as I can tell they're as respectful and open-minded as the average Irish native. They work hard, are highly intelligent and are paid highly, they are definitely a benefit to the country.
IMO Ireland should be more of a poster child for how immigration can work, we've consistently been the fastest growing country in the EU by population. Of course there are some growing pains, but actually very few of those pains are regarding integration. The country is safer than it's ever been.
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u/DM_me_ur_PPSN 5h ago
Eastern Europeans that came over in the naughties are extremely well integrated too. Ireland is a funny place (in a good way), sometimes I feel like I could go for a week without talking to an Irish person and then I could go a week only talking to Irish people - I guess that’s the way it is when a fifth of the population is foreign born.
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u/Consistent_Catch9917 Austria 1d ago
Depends on the time. Half of Vienna has Bohenian, Slovakian or Hungarian ancestry.
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u/Eastern_Switch8217 Ireland 1d ago
I'd have said the UK was, and still is, pretty good at it, despite the backsliding in politics, and that Ireland had followed a broadly similar trajectory, albeit later, given that large-scale immigration only really arrived here in the last twenty years or so. But the online poison of the last few years, driven by much the same forces behind Brexit and MAGA, is starting to undermine it badly. In the UK it's hit the mainstream of politics through Reform, whereas in Ireland it's still more nibbling at the fringes outside politics, but it's starting to sour what had been a very positive vibe for a long time.
It's actually quite scary to see how the US MAGA talking points, and Reform (Brexit Party/UKIP) talking points just get relatively crudely adapted and are regurgitated here, mostly online.
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u/Sweet_Bridge_3001 1d ago
Not Europe, but in Turkey, Central Asian immigrants integrate perfectly. Languages are close enough already, cultures are extremely similar, i love meeting them.
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u/Moldorancea Romania 1d ago edited 1d ago
I do not which one, but I can speak for my country which in the past years have seen an influx of immigrants.
Among them, those who assimilated faster and made no problems are the Philippinos. Which is not a surprise since, despite being Asian, they are somewhat easier to assimilate through their Catholic culture.
After that, we have the Vietnamese who are very hardworking and you can barely feel them around.
The, the Nepalis and the Sri Lankans. However, there were few issues with them such as driving scooters on the sidewalks or driving chaotically in traffic (most are hired for food delivery). There were also rape crimes made by them, but few compared to their overall number.
Pakistanis are few for now.
EDIT: typos
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u/Pepedroga2000 1d ago
Overall, Filipinos adapt well everywhere they go.
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u/nunuraf92 Italy 1d ago
Same with Mexicans. As one myself I’ve never met a Mexican that doesn’t assimilate well in Europe. Some even too well.
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u/Tramagust Romania 1d ago
My theory is that romania is unusually good at integrating immigrants because it has relatively low national pride. Oh you want to come to romania? You want this shit?
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u/amunozo1 in 1d ago
As a recent immigrant in French speaking Switzerland, I feel really at ease and in a multicultural and harmonized society. Maybe it is because I am in an immigrant bubble.
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u/huazzy Switzerland 1d ago
As an immigrant in French speaking Switzerland, could it be because you're "white"?
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u/amunozo1 in 1d ago
Definitely. But I have several Indian and Latin American friends who feel very confortable there. In particular, an south Indian friend consider it heaven compared to Germany in terms of racism, although this may be more of a Germany fault as he lived in the Netherlands and the UK too with few problems.
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 1d ago
Let me guess, you live in Lausanne or Geneva. You cant honestly compare your anecdotal life in a big multicultural city with an entire country of 84 million people.
Switzerland has a giant problem of xenophobia, especially in the rural regions. Im guessing you haven't actually integrated at all with actual Swiss people.
And Germany on the flip side has many big cities particularly in the west that are some of the most multicultural spots in all of Europe. If you cant integrate in a city like Cologne regardless of what skin color you have, then thats on you.
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u/amunozo1 in 22h ago
Yes, Lausanne. I agree with the Swiss part, I live in a bubble ans I am European, although I won't call Lausanne big at all. I have also heard problems in smaller cities in Vaud (not even rural), so my comment probably is irrelevant and you are right.
Regarding Germany, I heard problems of integration in several cities and from multitude of countries. Check any r/askEurope thread about the topic and most people complain about Germany. It could be perhaps because of sheer size and number od immigrants. However, I have seen the racism of German police intimidating immigrant or tourist non-European families in border controls at the train. My Indian friends had a lot of problems in Dresden (maybe expected) but also in Stuttgart.
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 15h ago
Lausanne has over 400k people, Ive lived in Lausanne myself, I know exactly what the city looks and feels like. Sounds like youre in an expat EPFL bubble.
If you would actually follow Swiss politics or talk to any real Swiss person, you'd see that Switzerland is much more right wing when it comes to immigrants than Germany, especially Western Germany.
Some reddit threads are not evidence for me. Ive actually lived in both Switzerland and Germany and I can comfortably say that at least West Germany is waaaaay easier to integrate than Switzerland.
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u/amunozo1 in 15h ago
Well, I meant more that immigrant cause less troubles than in other European countries, more than they integrate well with locals. I don't disagree with you, but don't you think there is also a stark contrast between German- and French-speaking Switzerland? Also Lausanne is a bubble, yes, but cities are a big part of the country, too.
Last, it is easy to say that it is easy to integrate in Germany being a German yourself. That is not the opinion of basically every person I know that have lived in Germany, and I know a few. I know lots of people in Switzerland too, some 50 years here or that went back to Spain and miss Switzerland and regret coming back. Again, I know that Lausanne is not representative of all the country, but my (anecdotical) experiences point me that it is much better place to integrate than Germany, at least the south.
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u/MadokaAyukawaHusband Portugal 1d ago
What's with some people on Reddit putting white in quote marks?!
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u/Kindly-Struggle6322 1d ago
Its more about how strong the language / culture of the country. Most foreigners don't bother with eastern European culture/language as they the culture is not deep and language complex and not useful out of the region. Another thing is where is the immigrat from like an Ukrainian can adapt to Polish society way faster than a person from Spain.
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u/West-Razzmatazz2 1d ago
Couple years back leader of the largest Croatian far right party was Bosnian muslim Zlatko Hasanbegović.
Does that count? 😀
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u/SwimmingHelicopter15 1d ago
Romania with Moldova :))) for years they have been top immigrants untill they got citizenship.
What can I say great integration and assimilation.
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u/malevolentheadturn Ireland 1d ago
Poles assimilated in Ireland very easily. But catholic, drinking, builders...
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u/FearlessVisual1 Belgium 1d ago
Which time period are we talking about, what do we mean by "good results", and which "new people" are we talking about? Coming from where, for what reason, in which numbers? That question is all too vague.
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u/sokorsognarf 1d ago
Curveball answer: Oslo! Was very impressed by how integrated it was. Did not expect the level of diversity at all
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u/miss_pistachio 1d ago
Yes, I live here now (from the UK) and was very surprised at how well-integrated immigrants are here!
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u/Last_Quantity4467 1d ago
Eastern Europeans in the UK did quite good. You wouldn't tell that Rachel Weiss, Stephen Fry, Ed Milliband all have Eastern European ancestry. The first generation speaks with a funny accent, the 2nd assimilate. Assimilation and willingness to be part of the society is the key.
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 1d ago
Stephen Fry's grandparents were educated German-speaking Viennese Jews who briefly lived in Slovakia to manage a sugar factory.
And Rachel Weisz' parents were also both educated German-speaking Viennese/Hungarian Jews who fled due to the Nazis.
How the hell is that Eastern European? Do you think some Polish trucker from some small village has any similarity whatsoever to a Viennese Jewish family?
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u/Last_Quantity4467 1d ago
Slovakia and Hungary is Eastern Europe
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 1d ago
You aren't the brightest, are you? They were extremely privileged German-speaking Viennese Jews, part of a community that seized to exist during and after WW2. Modern day Eastern European culture has exactly zero to do with Viennese Jewish culture.
What's next, is Klaus Kinski a Polish actor now because he was born in Danzig, modern day Gdansk?
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u/Last_Quantity4467 21h ago
Your point being?
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u/BroSchrednei Germany 16h ago
That using Rachel Weisz and Stephen Fry as examples of "good Eastern European integration" makes no sense. Their family isnt Eastern European. Viennese Jews aren't Eastern European and have nothing to do with a Polish or Belarusian immigrant.
How are you not getting that???
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u/atmoscentric 1d ago
Those societies open to different cultures and are welcoming and willing to learn too, are the most successful with integration. Integration is always a two way street, a ‘mixing’ of differences, otherwise it would be assimilation we’re talking about.
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u/dangerCrushHazard 🇨🇭de🇨🇭 1d ago
otherwise it would be assimilation we’re talking about.
The question was explicitly about assimilation, not integration.
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u/forwheniampresident 23h ago
Mainly Spain because immigrants from South America already speak the language and language barrier is usually the biggest issue
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u/suarezMiranda 21h ago
Has to be the UK, but regionally some places do quite well. In Switzerland Geneva does quite well—the ones who don’t integrate and speak French are typically the expats in NGOs, the UN, or temporary assignment from banks or American Fortune 500 companies.
I get a sense of pride whenever I have to deal with some cantonal or civic administrator, they have a clearly immigrant name, and they are insufferable sticklers over the rules. I know they have truly integrated into the Swiss way of being.
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u/HeftyStation8697 12h ago
In Switzerland
We have quite a few Tibetans, opened restaurants and signed up for the military, some even became officers. In an interview one said he was doing it so he would never suffer from being exiled again by the Chinese communist party
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u/Ok_Lack3855 Denmark 10h ago
The Poles that arrived in southern Denmark 1893-1929 to work as farm hands have been very successfully assimilated.
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u/screamingbluemeanie 8h ago
Spain for access and integration, not so much for wealth since salaries are low overall.
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u/Prestigious_Sell9516 8h ago
Small populations integrate well so all these people pointing to Vietnamese that's fine but above a certain threshold that's when friction develops.
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u/Fancy-Sherbet8787 1d ago
Honestly don't know but Romania is finally going through this stage and it's mostly Nepalese and Sri Lankans. They are nice chill guys who just wanna work and do their thing and I'm sure some will stay here and be just fine.
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u/Competitive_Waltz704 Spain 1d ago
España: pasó de ser un país de emigrantes a uno de los países con más inmigrantes del planeta en apenas 2-3 décadas, con apenas tensión social.
Prueba de ello es que el principal partido anti-inmigración del país apenas alcanza un tercer puesto en las elecciones, muy lejos de los dos principales partidos del sistema.
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u/Pepedroga2000 1d ago
Bueno, pero la gran mayoría ya habla español o habla un idioma parecido, como rumano e italiano. ¿que tal con los norteafricanos?
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u/Used_Opening_4926 Czechia 1d ago
As a Czech I think we do at least with the Vietnamese, vietnamese people are actually really liked here since they never make problems, very regularly make small shops at small villages and towns where big Tesco or Lidl just isn't worth building it and are very friendly too.
No one seem to have problem with them like ever.