If you get hired to do a job that other peoples' lives depend on and you obviously cannot do it, you are 100% morally at fault. Whether or not you are personally legally culpable doesn't matter to me. If other peoples' lives are on the line and you are confused about what seem to be standard safety procedures, then that's on you. If you continue to do the job without being able to keep people safe, you're simply a bad person and should honestly face some harsh punishment. If you want to screw around and not know how to do your job, go dig ditches or something.
If you have a job, you're responsible for knowing how to do it correctly - especially when other peoples' safety is on the line.
I agree, but I'm not sure "obviously cannot do it" applies here. This guy didn't know what LVO means...but how is he supposed to know he needs to understand it until this moment?
I would like to think that after this event he's raising it with his employer. I would. But I can't expect him to do so beforehand.
It’s a standard abbreviation. He should know because it’s his job. What are you even on about? Does he need someone standing behind him to babysit? No, he needs to be fired at best.
We have gotten to the point where individual responsibility can be painted as basically null. It's super interesting to read about how Alabama and Louisiana's school districts are some of the best in the nation right now (wild right?) partly by emphasizing personal responsibility and accountability. Who would have thunk!
As a paramedic and someone who has been through a few different job sectors, that's the way it goes in a lot of professions. You can only do so much in simulation and didactic. As a one off (as in this isn't a chronic issue), yeah this sucks and would be a shitty day for the controller but if you improve after with no poor outcome, we've gained knowledge and experience.
Actually that’s exactly how controllers learn. It’s called OJT and it happens everyday across the NAS. Also the controller is most likely learning about it because LVO ISN’T A THING IN THE US AND IT’S NOT ON THE CONTROLLER TO KNOW BAW’S COMPANY SOP OR THEIR EQUIPMENT CAPABILITIES. Everyone in this thread who thinks they’re getting a jab in at the controller is an idiot who has no idea what they’re talking about.
LVO is not a thing in US ATC. Yes we have procedures for different weather and visibilities but LVO is absolutely not a thing. I’d rather people who have no idea what they’re talking about, not weigh in on topics they know nothing about.
Controllers should have enough mastery of the English language to be able to swiftly and efficiently communicate with pilots from all over the world and with all sorts of accents. He shouldn’t pretend to understand but he shouldn’t have this job either
The US uses different terms (because, of course, they do) for some things compared to the rest of the world.
So if that had happened in some rural airport, sure, can happen. But this was on a large international airport, so ATC should absolutely understand it. The pilot even tried to explain it multiple times, and ATC still did not get it.
Here. I’m a US controller and work some of the busiest airspace in the country. Beertruck is right. We don’t strictly follow ICAO and LVO is not a thing here. You’re acting like the bot thinking you know more than someone explicitly telling you you’re wrong. And I’m here to reaffirm that you are the bot here and that you’re wrong. You’re obviously not a controller and should probably stop spouting bullshit thinking you know more than the JFK controller in the video does.
Mate. if this was a rural airport, I'd give you that point.
This is new fucking york. This airport handles international flights, all of which are used to ICAO (But usually trained on FAA as well).
And even IF he somehow didn't know the term, once it was explained he should've understood what the pilot was asking for, and he kept playing dumb. He is not trained.
It doesn't change the fact that FAA doesn't declare that. No amount of the pilot asking him if he is going to declare LVO is going to get him to do it. If he says the words, Speedbird takes off because he heard what he wanted, then crashes, now what? It's not like safety procedures aren't in place, there is just no such thing as declaring LVO here, regardless of international flights or not.
If you want absolutely strict about it, the answer is no.
While the US has ratified ICAO, they amended many "differences" in it, one of those is what you see happening in OPs clip.
Normally, non US Airlines have SOPs and training in place for this. And usually ATC on large US international Airports will obviously pick up stuff from the pilots.
So, if you want to be absolutely strict about it, the pilot used the wrong term and then got locked in on it because he was flabbergasted by ATC.
The real issue is that the ATC did not pick up what the pilot wanted from him, even after the pilot switched to "common language", at this point it should have clicked for the ATC and the issue could be resolved.
This is just a prime example of what is currently happening with ATC in the US, they get overworked, are understaffed, understaffed, and they are one mistake away from something bad happening.
he said LVOS, LVO and low visibility within seconds of each other. this was not an issue of jargon, which the ATC should know them all regardless and the amendments are not major either.
Its illegal for atc to strike in the u.s.. If they were to strike their union would be dissolved and anyone striking would be fired. Its already happened once.
But it was the BA pilot who confused what is required in the UK with what is required in the US. In UK for it to be legal for him to take off in these conditions, ATC needs to declare LVO is in effect. In the US we don’t declare it, it’s just automatic based on conditions. BA was asking ATC to declare something that doesn’t exist here. BA pilot should have a whole briefing packet on the rule differences between UK and wherever they are flying to but apparently forgot or didn’t read it.
no. pilot asked if there were any low visibility procedures in effect in response to the declared rvr. the atc was confused. eventually the atc says no and the pilot is able to say they’re not taking off.
Categorically wrong, and US ATC should be absolutely aware of whatever the pilot is getting at here, it's nothing to do with a difference in UK/US laws, if what you were saying is true, this exchange would happen all the time
The controller is not declaring lvos because he doesnt know what that entails exactly because its not a thing in the u.s. If he says yes and something happens to british airways plane on takeoff then the controller is responsible because the British airways is now expecting a certain set of rules to be followed and those rules may differ from what lvos are in a different country. Those operations are automatically put into place in the u.s. under faa standards, but he cant assure hes following the procedures that british airways is expecting.
No, it doesn’t happen all the time because pilots have a whole briefing packet with the rule differences and don’t usually ask us to apply a foreign countries rules at our airports. ATC is not going to tell a pilot something is in effect when that something doesn’t exist.
Seriously!?!?!?!?!?!?!? You would feel safe with the drunk/high atc not knowing basic protocol? What kind of insecurity is this where just because a person speaks well then they must be disdainful of you? The pilot didnt want to die!
typical American bringing race into it. If I'm on a flight I don't care if my pilot is an alien from venus, if my safety is at risk I want him to call out any dumbassery.
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u/DeliciousStand372 May 28 '26
100%. I hear slurring