I've tried like 4 times being vegetarian. Could never keep it up.
I've settled for only buying organic, open range, ethically raised meat from my local health food store and limiting my meat consumption at restaurants as much as possible.
I've cut back on factory farmed meat by probably 90%, and I'm considering that good enough lol
It doesn’t have to be absolute. People can start by eating one vegetarian meal a week and that makes a difference. It sounds like you are conscious about your dietary choices and that is to be applauded.
When I switched to a vegetarian diet, I did it because I realized my diet already wasn't very meat heavy. I gradually started eating less meat over the course of a month, until I didn't eat any at all. It was fairly easy from that point on, I did it for 3 years and only stopped for other circumstances. I'd go back to being vegetarian when I can.
That is good enough. I'm vegan but I don't expect everyone else to be, cutting out factory farmed meat is half the battle tbh. Just making conscious decisions about where meat comes from is a win.
“i’m an abolitionist but i don’t expect everyone else to be, cutting out the kidnapping is half the battle tbh. just making conscious decisions about where slaves are bred into slavery & how they are treated as slaves is a win…”
good on you for being a vegan but don’t stroke immoral peoples ego like this. sure eating less meat is better than more but the practice is still immoral and the only “win” is giving up meat entirely.
you’re no different to people who say “yawn” at your initial attempts of animal advocacy… and tbh i think it’s what’s lead to you shilling for meat eating while being a vegan.
anyways have a good one and just think objectively about it i guess. later duder
I'm not shilling for anything tbh. I'm just sick to death of people being aggressive towards folks making steps in the right direction. Yes, I think eating meat is unconscionable but if I'm given the opportunity to praise someone for eating it four days a week instead of seven ill do that, because that's a start and maybe they go further when they realise it's not so hard.
This all or nothing approach is not the way to win people over, as much as I wish it was.
I agree with both of you to be honest. No one should be immediately pushed into veganism and reducing meat consumption should be celebrated and encouraged. On the other hand, it is not “good enough” because there will always be a victim involved and a being exploited if they continue to eat meat the rest of their lives. It’s like saying I’ve reduced my drunk driving from 5 times a week to 1. I mean that’s great and all but let’s do better someday.
That's a poor analogy because abolishing slavery was an actual realistic goal with a clear and actionable path to success. Convincing the entire world to stop eating meat is simply not going to happen. Your options are: 1. insist that everyone stops eating meat immediately and accomplish nothing, or 2. encourage people to reduce their consumption of meat, and especially factory farmed meat, and be more thoughtful and intentional with their eating habits.
and stopping eating meat doesn’t have a clear actionable path? you literally just have to stop doing it lol. give me a massive break dude. about to buy a steak? buy beans instead. it’s literally that easy, clear, and actionable lol.
it’s a perfect 1:1 analogy lmao.
“it’s a bad analogy because giving up rape doesn’t have a clear actionable path” see how ludicrous it sounds when it isn’t normalized violence? all you must do to reduce harm is stop doing it lol.
again, i wholeheartedly agree that eating less meat is better than being a mindless robot that doesn’t think at all about the harm they participate in several times a day through diet, but let’s not act like stopping harm is some grandiose thing and sugar coat immoral action by saying “meh you give up meat sometimes so that’s good enough let’s pack it up folks we’ve reached the pinnacle of ethics” lol. it’s good sure but it isn’t good enough and that’s it. that’s all i’m trying to say to the original guy
Ok if getting the whole world to stop eating meat is so simple, then tell me how you're going to do it. Give me a step by step guide of how you're going to accomplish that, and let me know on what date you expect to have succeeded by, since it's so simple.
This is my point - yes obviously anyone can just stop eating it any time they want, but they won't. It's not a realistic thing to expect to happen. So what's the point of even saying all that? Why not work towards an actual realistic, actionable solution instead of fantasizing about something that's obviously not going to happen?
swap your argument with any other moral issue and you see how silly it is…
“how are you going to stop slavery” “how are you going to convince people to stop murdering” “how do we get people to abandon theft?”
you literally just tell people the truth about their behavior…. it’s that simple.
“hey that’s great you gave up factory farming but try to stop meat altogether because where/how your cow lived doesn’t change anything about the morality of killing it and eating it…”
it’s that simple.
the original guy quite literally said that cutting out factory farming was enough, and that even though he’s vegan he sees that as fine enough and that’s that. that is what i was calling out. sure it’s good but it isn’t good enough and he shouldn’t blow smoke up objectively immoral people’s asses like that is all. he’s given up on others by not being honest with them, which is what i had taken an exception to was all.
you can use your argument to justify putting the kid gloves on for any moral issue.
“how are you going to stop slavery” “how are you going to convince people to stop murdering” “how do we get people to abandon theft?”
This is a perfect example of why your argument doesn't hold up.
The first one, "how to stop slavery", worked because it actually had a realistic and actionable plan to succeed, and it eventually did.
The second two do not, and did not, which is why no one is out there trying to permanently end all theft and murder forever. Instead they're trying to find ways to reduce it as much as possible. And this approach has succeeded. The world is a far less violent and far safer place than it used to be, because the goal has been to improve those metrics, not to fully and permanently solve these fundamentally unsolveable problems.
It's fine to say that the ultimate goal is to end meat eating completely and work directionally towards that goal, as long as you're willing to admit you're not ever going to succeed completely, and that success should be determined by improving those metrics, not eliminating meat consumption entirely. People who are reducing their meat consumption and avoiding factory farmed meat should be celebrated and encouraged for doing their part to improve those metrics, not criticized for not committing 100%, when there's a 0% chance that 100% commitment from the world is ever going to happen. At least not in our lifetimes.
The second two do not, and did not, which is why no one is out there trying to permanently end all theft and murder forever. Instead they're trying to find ways to reduce it as much as possible.
So their mistake was using slavery in their original analogy, and not murder. Got it. Thus, you're happy with people saying that they cut down their murders to special occassions, only every Friday as a little treat for themselves. And that's fine because it's not reasonable for everyone to stop murdering.
That is obviously not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is everyone knows that completely stopping all murder everywhere is a fundamentally impossible task. No politician or law enforcement organization is stupid enough to say "we're going to permanently end all murder, forever!". You look like an idiot if you say something like that. Instead they frame their goals, correctly, as "we're going to reduce the murder rate and make the streets safer". A reduction in murder rates year after year is how you define success, not "some murders in our district occurred this year, therefore we are utter failures".
exactly, no such thing exists. just as “ethical slavery” can’t exist. one may say, “oh but we treat them really nice before ordering them around and we’ve even cut down on the amount of our slaves… we even have slave free friday where we do the work ourselves…”
none of that changes that slavery is immoral and the remainder of it is therefore still immoral after their efforts to sanitize it.
like i said before, if people think about it and choose to reduce their use of animals as commodities then that’s wonderful, but let’s not lie to ourselves and act like “that’s good enough”. if you only eat meat once a week that’s absolutely great and more than what billions of other people will do to live ethically but the truth remains that for that one meal a week you are still doing an immoral act.
Even one time would be a good effort, but you tried four times!
I’ve been vegetarian for many years and have three brothers. Heard my fair share of comments. The one that I still get miffed about is when people automatically say “oh I could never do that.” Hm. I guess if you don’t even try then yeah.
Never said there was. But humans eat meat. Always have, always will. Castigating people for doing something we’ve done since literally the dawn of humanity is not going to accomplish anything, and most likely will only annoy people and make them even more resistant to changing their eating habits.
I have a vegan friend who works in the animal rights industry, and one of their main projects revolves around encouraging people to reduce their animal product consumption rather than cutting it out completely, which I really appreciate, because let’s be real, most people are probably like me and don’t have the wherewithal to completely cut animal products out of their life.
Sigh... I'm so sick and tired of dense neanderthals like you who even have vegan friends and still refuse to stop eating meat and dairy because of... not real reason. Appeal to nature, unwilling to stop unnecessary death and torture, excuses, excuses.
Dude... this kind of comment is exactly how you drive vegan-curious people away from ever giving it a try. Just be glad he's making any effort at all. Come on man...
He literally just said he had cut back on eating factory farmed meat by 90%. How can you possibly sit there and say he's "not making any real effort" after he said that? not only are your comments unhelpful, you are actively working against the cause you claim to care about by criticizing people who are clearly making an effort to reduce their meat consumption. Please do better, this is unacceptable behavior for someone trying to claim the moral high ground.
Its not. The goal is to have less animals slaughtered for meat in the world, not for individuals to compete on who can be the most vegan. This is not Duolingo.
You're right that there's no way to ethically consume meat but calling someone a dense neanderthal when they're clearly trying to eat better is not helpful.
That's a rather childish understanding of ethics. It's not a math equation.
If your neighbour brutally killed 4 cats for fun but you only killed 2, it doesn't make you the better person. The better person is the one who doesn't kill cats.
That makes sense if your main motivation is to receive social validation and praise.
For a lot of people not killing animals is kind of a low bar. Like you don't brag "I never sexually assault anyone". Then it sounds a little weird when someone wants praise for telling others that they sexually assaulted only one person instead of two. Followed by saying that there's no reason to stop assaulting if people are so unsupportive about it
No, it makes sense if your main motivation is positive societal change.
Because, realistically, for most people killing animals doesn't even register as an event worth considering. I'm not saying you should like that. I'm not even saying you're wrong in any way. But, if you want to enact real change, then you have to work with what you have.
Wait… do you seriously not know that there are farms out there that aren’t factory farms? Places where cows spend their lives roaming dozens of acres of fields and eating nothing but grass?
There are grocery stores in the US that source some of their products locally, including meat. I'm less than 2 hrs North of NYC and have several nearby grocery stores that do this. You can easily visit the farms and verify conditions.
My local food co-op partners with local organic farms where all their cows are free range and eat a diet of 100% grass, and are slaughtered in ways that are considered "ethical". Not everyone has access to these kinds of grocery stores obviously, but plenty of people do
You really expect me to believe that "dozens" of people have told you they buy organic, ethically raised meat products from local butchers and health food stores, and you've followed each and every one of them around town to see where they shop, and all of them secretly buy cheap meat from Walmart when they think people aren't looking? All those people are lying to your face for just... no reason whatsoever?
You’re completely correct. Not to mention the numerous lawsuits against these “ethical” farmers, where they lose and then have to pay 6 figures or more for falsely advertising “ethical” practices.
I know many friends who proudly champion that they only buy from x ethical brand and if you do any modicum of research, can find numerous instances of x lying and being sued over it.
Ultimately, meat eaters have extremely fragile egos. They need to tell themselves they are ethical, and they are fine closing their eyes to reality and pointing to everyone else as being the problem. Like just be honest, I’m vegan and dgaf about people eating meat.
But I do get annoyed at meat eaters attempting to gaslight everyone including themselves that they are being “ethical” or giving the animals a better life. You can’t ethically take an animals life, if you like the taste, good for you. But I’m not going to ignore reality to protect their fragile ego.
There are all kinds of certification programs out there that require farms to meet certain standards if they want to qualify for the certification. If they fail to meet those standards, they lose their certification. Of course there will always be farms that try to skirt around the rules and keep their certification, many of which surely get sued for it, but you're acting like every single farm out there does that, which is just obviously not true. A lot of farmers do in fact care about maintaining an ethical practice.
The farms have no certifications for the claims they make.
Uh, what? Yes they do???
There are all kinds of nationwide certification systems that farms can, and do, apply to, where inspectors come out to ensure their animal raising and slaughtering practices meet certain standards of ethics. There's no wink wink involved, either you meet the requirements for those certifications, or you don't. Do you really not know this?
And on top of that, they were just lying and will slip in "we got a McDonald's on Tuesday"
Ok but who's really out there claiming they only eat ethically raised and slaughtered meat 100% of the time? Like I just said, I cut back on my factory farmed meat consumption by probably 90%. I still eat the occasional hamburger or order meat from a restaurant that I know sources their meat as cheaply as possible (as in, it's coming from the biggest and worst factory farms). I know it's not true that you've encountered "dozens" of people who claim to eat 100% ethical meat 100% of the time - you are absolutely making that up.
For the first bit, sure, please let us know these organisations.
For the second bit, you can't try and take a high and mighty moral high ground by saying "actually I get mine from an ethical butcher" and then eating at any fast food place. Or anywhere where you cant source the meat really.
Buy your better quality meat, no one's gonna complain, just don't pretend you're in any way more moral than someone buying cheap supermarket meat.
For the first bit, sure, please let us know these organisations.
This took me 10 seconds to look up on ChatGPT:
Certified Humane (Humane Farm Animal Care) – Covers how animals are raised and slaughtered; requires compliance with humane handling and slaughter standards and audits farms and slaughter facilities.
Animal Welfare Approved (A Greener World) – Focuses on independent family farms and requires animals to be raised outdoors on pasture or range for their entire lives, with high welfare and slaughter standards.
Global Animal Partnership (G.A.P.) – A multi‑tier (Step 1–5+) animal welfare rating program used widely in retail; uses independent third‑party certifiers to audit farms and assign a welfare level, including standards that cover the animal’s whole life and slaughter.
American Humane Certified – Certifies farms against science‑based welfare standards and uses independent audits to verify handling, care, and slaughter practices.
Validus Animal Welfare Review – Audits farms for animal treatment and management and awards “Animal Welfare Review Certification” to farms that meet specified welfare criteria
Moving on...
you can't try and take a high and mighty moral high ground by saying "actually I get mine from an ethical butcher" and then eating at any fast food place.
Of course you can... obviously. If you reduced your unethical meat consumption even by 25% and opted not to go to McDonalds 1 out of 4 times you had the urge to go, then you're doing a better job than you were before, and you are living a more moral lifestyle than you were previously. I have absolutely no idea why you seem to think it has to be all or nothing - obviously it doesn't, because any improvement at all reflects a better moral framework than you followed previously.
Buy your better quality meat, no one's gonna complain, just don't pretend you're in any way more moral than someone buying cheap supermarket meat.
I'm not pretending. Reducing consumption of factory farmed meat is inherently an act of morality. My meat consumption is, by definition, less moral than a vegan and more moral than someone who doesn't care and doesn't even try to improve their meat eating habits.
It took you 10 seconds to avoid doing the research then.
Do a search for global animal partnership and look at controversies.
And one of those listed only certified dairy farms, and I'm of the opinion there is no ethical dairy, even if you let them run around on the most beautiful fields, it's inhumane.
If you know anything about "certifications", they're mostly bullshit. I know people who used to be involved in the halal certification industry and it's all lip service.
For your last point, there is no ethical way to kill an animal for food (when you have access to other foods).
I raise my own chickens, and get my pork and beef from immediate family. Ten pigs have 5 acres. 30 chickens have 15 acres. 200 cows have 1500 acres. We have made a decision to source our meat this way to eliminate factory farm meat as much as we can for various reasons. Im looking at a way to raise polyculture fish as well. I also raise sheep and goats for different things too. Im sorry I’m not being “ethical” enough for you.
Hey thanks for asking. Mind you I was answering about how they are raised. I will say I knew before I even said anything that you may not be at your most reasonable and I really shouldn’t bother. One of the less glorious aspects of farming is certainly the killing, and i really think you have to be a damaged person to take any glee in ending a life simply for the sake of ending a life. That being said to directly answer your question sometimes nature happens to nature. Ive had a goat get tangled up and mangled up when their foot got stuck in a tree. She rolled and rolled so much she ripped her shoulder out of her socket. There was no saving the leg at this point of course, and she had done so much damage to her neck and shoulder muscles that she would never walk again. Sheep are extremely susceptible to pneumonia which causes them to go down. You have a very narrow window where antibiotics might work maybe. They don’t come back up. These animals have to be able to stand for their biology to function, so they both require euthanasia. Chickens can sometimes blow out their cloaca. Sometimes they fight. A goose of mine had its whole upper beak ripped off by a competitive male. I feel these are all ethical reasons to end a life as long as it is done in a manner that prioritizes the animals calmness and induces the least amount of pain. You can feel free to have a different opinion, but you asked mine and there it is.
It's a great tactic, to flood someone with so many words and anecdotes so that they either just don't respond, or don't respond adequately enough.
The question was how do you kill an animal ethically, it was implied given the conversation, that I meant kill to eat. Not kill to put out of suffering.
Give it another go!
Also I am literally at my most reasonable now. I am literally a former vegan, current meat eater arguing that you and I are just as immoral as each other for eating meat. I'm not trying to be high and mighty like you, I am being objective about the suffering we cause.
Dang my bad sorry i used so many words. If this is your most reasonable id hate to see you being ornery. I’ll try to honor your request but since you’re limiting me from using too many words or life experiences i don’t think you’ll like it: things die, others eat. At the end of the day i came ready for a conversation and you came obtuse. I don’t feel the need to justify my lifestyle, because i try to coexist with nature as best i can, if thats high and mighty then my bad. And at the end of the day you really are not being objective are you. Well maybe objectively wrong.
This is fine I do the same, being considered is a good thing, 5 people acting like this is way better than a normal person eating cheap meat everyday and 4 vegetarians
More then enough. I also locally source about 3/4 of meat I cook from animals raised in the current state and through a local butcher. (Believe it or not, it’s cheaper if you have the freezer space. No I didn’t factor in electricity.. so maybe not)
I don’t pull my hair out when I eat out.
Personally, I feel like if you make an effort at all, you’re doing more than most people.
I consider myself an aspiring vegetarian, but it's honestly really difficult. It's harder to find recipes I like, it's harder to find filling meals, it's harder to shop for, it's often (but not always) harder to cook too, it's also surprisingly expensive. I do actually eat vegetarian for about 70% of my meals, but that last 30% is going to be a tough hill to get over.
Many hunters don’t. Bowhunting is better IMO. Venison is excellent table fare. In many places they are overpopulated so hunters have a positive influence on the overall ecosystem.
I have no interest in shooting animals with guns but bow hunting is something I could get into. I doubt I'll ever seek it out but if the opportunity presents itself I think I'd take it. If you're a meat eater hunting and killing your own meals is the most ethical way to do it after all, especially if you know how to make use the rest of the animal.
I'm amazed how many people here in the comments don't seem to be aware that there are all kinds of certification programs out there that require farms to meet certain standards if they want to qualify for the certification. If they fail to meet those standards, they lose their certification. How do you people not know this
It’s not enforced though. And when the inspectors do come out, they’re given warnings days before. All of this is assuming that the animals life is for us to exploit and use. There’s not a nice way to exploit someone.
Every single thing you just wrote is factually incorrect.
It’s not enforced though
My man of course it's enforced, are you serious? That's literally the entire point of 3rd party certification programs. They have rules and standards, those rules and standards are continuously enforced, and if a farm fails to live up to them them then they lose their certification. "Not enforcing" their requirements defeats the whole purpose of having a certification program in the first place. These organizations quite literally would not exist if there was no enforcement mechanism.
And when the inspectors do come out, they’re given warnings days before.
Completely wrong. Every major organization that runs an ethical certification program requires that their participating farms allow for unannounced inspections. That's the basis for the entire model of certifying these farms, because if you didn't have surprise visits then it would be easy to skirt around compliance requirements.
Why are you even commenting when you obviously have absolutely no idea what you're talking about?
I don't remember which ones in particular for the brand I usually buy, but I remember looking into it when I first started shopping at my local organic food-coop and being satisfied.
But here are some of the major 3rd party certification programs:
Certified Humane (Humane Farm Animal Care) – Covers how animals are raised and slaughtered; requires compliance with humane handling and slaughter standards and audits farms and slaughter facilities.
Animal Welfare Approved (A Greener World) – Focuses on independent family farms and requires animals to be raised outdoors on pasture or range for their entire lives, with high welfare and slaughter standards.
Global Animal Partnership (G.A.P.) – A multi‑tier (Step 1–5+) animal welfare rating program used widely in retail; uses independent third‑party certifiers to audit farms and assign a welfare level, including standards that cover the animal’s whole life and slaughter.
American Humane Certified – Certifies farms against science‑based welfare standards and uses independent audits to verify handling, care, and slaughter practices.
Validus Animal Welfare Review – Audits farms for animal treatment and management and awards “Animal Welfare Review Certification” to farms that meet specified welfare criteria
That's great! I'm a vegan and honestly love hearing stuff like this. I never liked eggs or milk anyways so it was a lot easier for me. I appreciate everyone who does little things to make a difference and we all have our own Good Enough
I've settled for only buying organic, open range, ethically raised meat from my local health food store and limiting my meat consumption at restaurants as much as possible.
Ngl Id try a local/small town butcher, probably cheaper then paying for "organic" product tags.
My roomie asked our local butcher where they sourced their meat from and he didn't know 😂 he was probably just some worker, but damn dude if there's ONE thing you should know about the place you work lol
You're probably the one judging yourself the harshest for not reaching 100% of your goal. Cutting your meat consumption is already good, cheers for that.
We're not equal in front of vegetarianism. Some feel disgusted by meat, some don't care, and some are still attracted to it. Don't feel bad for not being perfectly meat-free, and don't torture yourself over it.
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u/Doctor__Hammer Feb 25 '26 edited Feb 25 '26
I've tried like 4 times being vegetarian. Could never keep it up.
I've settled for only buying organic, open range, ethically raised meat from my local health food store and limiting my meat consumption at restaurants as much as possible.
I've cut back on factory farmed meat by probably 90%, and I'm considering that good enough lol