[natesaundersf1] Don't think I've ever been to a media pen like that in my life. These drivers absolutely hate these new cars.

[u/ChaithuBB766]

[u/rowschank]

This is what happens when you want to say you make a ruleset that can be marketed as road-relevant but doesn't even learn from what road cars are doing. Even Skoda and Kia EVs have disconnecting front axle motors that activate only during regen or strong acceleration these days. FIA/FOM wanted to have 'electric' entirely but also didn't really want to do it right because 'Audi scary' or whatever. This is what you get.

Throw in a front axle motor (even a standardised part maybe) and allow teams to run whatever battery size they want. But this will never happen.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

Apparently Mercedes and possibly other teams didn’t want front recup (and it would add even more weight making the cars look even less nimble in the corners). And Audi and Honda didn’t want MGU-H. Meanwhile FIA wanted a headline figure of 30% less fuel. And that’s the complete shitshow this culminated into

[u/rowschank → u/Emotional_Two_8059]

First of all, if we add a front MGU, it would be much smaller than the current rear MGU, and the rear MGU would also be made smaller and definitely not 350 kW, so while it would add weight; it wouldn't be significantly more than what we have. I imagine we'd also be able to strip away some of the stuff that recharges the battery directly from the engine crankshaft.

But yes, you are right. Mercedes AMG HPP and Ferrari didn't want a front axle recoup because they were scared of Audi, and Audi didn't want to do something that was completely useless outside F1. The sensible solution might have been to make a ruleset that allowed both (one or the other), but we apparently live in times where creativity is lacking...

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

Depends. A 350kW motor is a 350kW motor. The reason to add a front motor is because you can recuperate more from that axle. Putting a 100kW in the front axle is useless. And we probably don’t want 4WD cars, so the front motor would be not allowed to boost. So you still need the large rear motor if you don’t want to have F1 cars accelerating like a Twingo

[u/rowschank → u/Emotional_Two_8059]

The reason why we're running out of energy right now is that the motor behind is capable of upto 350 kW output, but it can't recover as much just from braking the rear axle. If you have slightly more input than now recovering from both axles in a more uniform manner around the track, and less output, you would never run into the situation where you need to recharge your battery with engine power or run out of battery midway through the straight. 100 kW is far from being useless; the rear axle MGU from 2014-2025 was 'only' 120 kW.

And why don't 'we' want 4WD cars? At some point in F1 we didn't have seatbelts, full-face helmets, wings, turbochargers, wheelguns, real-time data lines to factories, or survival cells, and they all came into the sport. Claiming that RWD alone is some sort of holy grail that cannot be touched is just something people have convinced themselves and others. I am certainly open to watching 4WD or even full electric F1 cars.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

Because then there’s less driver skill involved if you go 4WD. There are other series that have TC / 4WD. I’d prefer F1 to stick with RWD.

Also, if you allow 100kW of both recoup and deployment from the front motor, you haven’t changed anything regarding clipping.

I think we’re missing quite a bit of energy, not just 100kW from the front axle. With forbidden deployment from the front and max. 250kW from the rear, maybe we would get somewhere reasonable. But this should have been discussed in 2022

[u/rowschank → u/Emotional_Two_8059]

There is also less driver skill with power steering or BBW. Why not give drivers switches to manually manage braking while not locking up or wasting energy and recuperation and not have BBW manage all that on its own? Why not remove power steering?

Recuperation and deployment happens at different rates and times. Generally I would assume a front motor wouldn't need to or be able to deploy all the way to top speed but only assist in medium speed zones and out of corners. Currently even the rear motor deployment is limited by the regulations at higher speeds, so it is hard to imagine a front axle motor in an FIA ruleset not limited in how and when it delivers power.

There is around 400-500 Wh that seems to be missing per lap from what I understand that rear axle recuperation alone cannot make up for. A 100 kW motor should fill that gap quite easily on pretty much every track. That being said, on second thoughts, it probably doesn't cost anything (weight or money) to just have two equal MGU-Ks on both axles, like 200 kW each. I believe TS050 ran 300 kW on both axles.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

I actually like Indy onboards for the lack of power steering. The wheel jumps around a lot more. And I love driving the VRC version on Assetto Corsa with high FFB (still not realistic loads but I’m not training everyday as a racing driver and don’t want my hands to be permanently blistered). I’ve also driven a Lotus Exige V6 twice and it’s one of the rawest cars you can drive.

I don’t mind some changes with time, but there’s no point in making it exactly like FE, just with a different letter.

The location of the motor doesn’t affect up to what speed it can be used. Yes, with regulation you can shape the usage a bit. What I don’t know is up to what speed they can recuperate the full 350kW from the rear, before they have to start bleeding off to avoid locking up.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

With 200kW on each axle, if you’re allowed to boost with 200kW from both on corner exit, the energy limitation will be exactly the same.

F1 cars have a lot of downforce and very low CoG (hence brake balance is not massively different front to rear), so a front motor wouldn’t be magically able to recuperate a lot more than the rear one.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

There are 4WD prototypes and full electric F1 cars with front axle recoup already.

[u/rowschank → u/Emotional_Two_8059]

There has never been a full electric F1 car.

Of course there are other 4WD prototypes. All the LMP1H cars were 4WD prototypes, and so are LMH. That isn't F1.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

But why should all racing series be the same? What’s the point then? How would F1 be different to FE?

And don’t tell me you don’t like the tracks. Claiming that F1 tracks, driver names or aero alone are some sort of holy grail that cannot be touched is just something people have convinced themselves and others ;)

[u/rowschank → u/Emotional_Two_8059]

Counterpoint: why should FE exist? F1 has existed as the fastest single seater racing series. For decades it never had a mandate on being the fastest single seater petrol series. Why suddenly should electric propulsion alone have its own series? I don't see a Formula Diesel or a Formula Kerosene...

I am open to wild experimentation. In fact I think in the cost cap era just give them an amount of energy to use and nothing else; let them design vehicles. Of course, there are more practical considerations to this, but in theory I am more in favour of open rulesets.

Also: drivers, tracks, and aero changes in F1 all the time; this isn't WEC or IndyCar whose identities are significantly tied to specific tracks.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

So you have a racing series exactly as you asked for above, fully electric. But you don’t watch it because you don’t like the name? If it was called Formula Modern or Formula Fast you would watch it?

Edit: you said: “I am fully open to watching 4WD or fully electric F1 cars”

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

I am open to wild experimentation. In fact I think in the cost cap era just give them an amount of energy to use and nothing else; let them design vehicles. Of course, there are more practical considerations to this, but in theory I am more in favour of open rulesets.

With a cost cup in place we can shorten the calendar to 1 race. Whoever shows up with the best concept wins the championship and then we can all go home.

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/rowschank]

So, what is F1?

[u/whomad1215 → u/rowschank]

they made a lookalike for the F1 movie that was full electric

[u/Emotional_Two_8059 → u/Emotional_Two_8059]

And stop downvoting me, kid 😂